Burned on Fake T206 Cobb in SGC Holder

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Posted By: Donald Johnson

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=190107135660&rd=1&rd=1

I'm currently in the process of filing a claim against this seller. I recently purchased this SGC 60 T206 Cobb Bat Off Shoulder and found that it was a laser copy when I received it. Additionally the SGC case was cracked down the seam and reglued together. I should have noted that the back was a Piedmont 150 when the SGC flip said 1911 but I must have been in a rush. Also, now that I look at it, the borders are a little too big on the front and the color is wrong - little hard to tell here because of a poor scan. Anyone else experience this? The seller is now claiming that I am experiencing "buyer's remorse" which is ridiculous and that I did not read his return policy (which he has not stated).

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Posted By: peter ullman

bummer Donald...good luck with that. the card DOES look pretty fake though...the borders aren't right and I'm guessing the type is off as well.

pete in mn

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I do wish you well with getting that resolved.

SGC will not help anyone on this. Once their holder is opened they will step back and guarantee nothing.

And I'm not sure how a collector who will only collect graded cards can protect himself from this, especially if a seller is selling a card that could exist (there aren't any "150" series bat off shoulder Cobb cards, although a grader could mislabel a 150 series card as 1911).

And it would be possible for a seller to sell such a graded card not knowing that what he's selling has been tampered with.

If the back looks real it might mean there's at least a real T206 in there. I'm not sure that cracking it out to see what it is would be a good idea, though. Seems a bad idea unless you had 2 or 3 folks watching as you did it, and you made a video record of it all... identify everyone present, what you're about to do, and why, then do it, then zoom in on the card without any pauses in the recording process.

For me personally, I generally find I'm better able to ascertain the authenticity of a card if it is not in a plastic grading holder.

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Posted By: barrysloate

That is very unfortunate because it is a new kind of scam that I haven't seen before, but I have to say that card doesn't even look remotely real.

Also, I don't know if SGC actually takes the time and effort to put a date on the label that reflects which series it is, but someone please correct me if I am wrong.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

DON

There are some on Net54 that have been critical of us "dinosaurs" who continuously post too many T206
threads on this Forum.
But, here is a clear example of having some insight into this set, would have spared you this problem.

The Ty Cobb (bat of shoulder) was printed in the 350/460 Series......NEVER, NEVER in the 150 Series.

When in doubt in the future , a simple email to me, or other members who are well-known T206 experts....
is welcome.

Also, I am really surprised that 20+ bidders didn't realize this card was a FAKE ? ? ? ? And, most of the
bidders were ebay "veterans".

TED Z

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

That sucks Donald. I got burned last year on a Caramel Cobb (laser copy), but this one is in a slab which is more scary. He had good feedback too. I suppose that is why I will always go the extra bid or two from sellers that I recognize. Good luck.

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Posted By: Brian E.

I saw this same card on Ebay but it just didn't look right, I decided to steer clear

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Posted By: Larry

Donald-

Immediately apply to paypal and e bay for a dispute/refund under the grounds of receiving a counterfeit card and tampered holder, they will pull the money from the seller and hold it until this gets investigated, then get a letter from SGC or PSA that this card is a reprint, make sure you video opening the slab so they can see the same card came from that slab....No doubt card looked bad in the holder, I personally would not have remembered a Piedmont 150 back was not available for this Cobb card but the lettering was a dead giveaway..Best wishes, Larry

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Posted By: Steve Murray

This listing had all (well almost all) signs of trouble:

1. The card LOOKS fake;

2. The seller's feedback is WEAK at best. Last 50 or so feedbacks were for items that did not exceed $50;

3 Price not in line with previous sales:

4/30/07 eBay View Auction $1,602.77 (Don's card)
12/10/06 eBay View Auction $2,247.00
12/3/06 eBay View Auction $2,125.00
11/10/06 Manontherock $2,587.50
10/26/06 Mastro $2,334.73

(This is why I find services such as VCP and CP so valuable)

4. As already stated Bat Off not found in 150.

This is a prime example of being blinded by the holder. Nowadays it is too easy to overlook the card and rely on the fact that it is in a slab. This should be a lesson to all of us.

Disclaimers:

1. I have no financial interest in VCP or CP;
2. I like both Bobby and Ted;
3. I especially like Don as I have had many satisfactory deals with him.

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Posted By: joe brennan

OMG. Just looking at the front its clearly a poor, poor fake. And to top it off, the back is wrong too. Sorry this happened but, clearly this shouldn't happen.

1. You spent $1600.00 and were in too much of a hurry to look at the card?

2. You are aware of this board and the 100's of years of knowledge here and never thought of e-mailing anyone here for opinions?

Sorry, but maybe the next buyer that has questions will remember this thread and take the advise of Ted and talk to someone. don't worry about outing an auction like this. If someone needed this card they already saw it long before you found it. (Unless it's listed in Modern Rookies or Antique furniture or complete fraud catagory.)

I don't mean to be harsh on you, but $1600.00 is a pretty big investment to not take this steps. Make sure you save scans of this auctions incase the seller pulls them and says you switched the card. Good luck.



In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: Donald Johnson

Unfortunately as Steve said I bought the holder and not the card. A lot of us have a lot of faith in SGC and tend to trust the judgement of their graders implicitly. Unfortunately on a scan, you cannot see that the side of the holder has been tampered with.

I guess situations like this happen when you don't see the card until the last minute and make a hurried bid. Appreciate all the input. And yes, I should have known better.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bizarrely, the seller does NOT accept personal checks. If you're looking to scam someone wouldn't you accept ONLY personal checks or money orders and NOT paypal?

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Posted By: Dave

Hi Donald,

I've never heard of that seller by his ebay name, I live about 5 minutes from Lebanon Ohio though( wayne Township is literally down the raod from Lebanon), so if you need any info concerning the local Police or anything like that I'd be glad to help you out in that manner.

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Posted By: Donald Johnson

Thanks Dave,

Hopefully the Ebay/Paypal resolution process will work and I won't have to resort to legal action.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Sorry to hear about this Donald. Hope everything works out in your favor.

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Posted By: anthony

steve, sorry but you cant be right all of the time...i dont normally respond to threads like this but this is a little unfair to donald...whether you meant it or not, its implied.

1. i'll give you the card looks fake, because it does. to the inexperienced t206 collector it should look at least questionable.

2. i dont agree with you that "the seller's feedback is WEAK at best just because the last 50 or so feedbacks were for items that did not exceed $50"

he has 0 negatives and a total of 400 positives, a lot of return buyers so obviously people were happy. i wouldnt call that WEAK by any standards except yours.

3. "price not in line with previous sales" you cant use this one either because 12/10/06 and 12/3/06 were sundays, the best days to end an auction. i'm sure knucklhead lost a few hundred dollars just by ending the auction on a monday evening at 7pm when everyone in california is out at the restaurant still and everyone on the east coast (except new york) is in bed.

11/10/06 was "manontherock" ...100% feedback with almost 5000 positive feedbacks received, i think he's ok to end on the MARINE CORPS BIRTHDAY, buyers feel more comfortable with 5000 positives than 400 positives, a better known seller.

10/26/06, not a sunday but it was Matro's...enough said on that one.

4. "bat off not found in 150"...well, unfortunately not every collector knows this, so i'll give you 1/2 credit for that one.

5. this is not a "prime example of being blinded by the holder"...its a prime example of an unfortunate sale to a less experienced collector unlike yourself.

so...i think you should go back and edit your post so you dont make everyone look like a "newbie collector" and yourself look like a "bragger" because thats what you did. you're obviously a knowledgable collector and i commend you for that.

as for donald, you do not look like a "newbie collector" nor a "less experienced collector" to me or a ton of other members, but apparently you do to steve. i hope you are able to get your money back...i was going to suggest contacting paypal if you paid that way, but a few have already suggested it...good luck!!

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Whoa......I have to come to the defense of Steve.....no apology is necessary

This isn't the 1st time an impossible front/back T206 HOFer has been in an SGC graded holder.
The more famous (infamous) mistake was when they graded a Matty (portrait) with a RED HINDU
back several years ago. And, then SGC stood by this "card" saying it was legitimate....when T206
veteran collectors challenged it.

I have made some nice vintage card deals with Don and he is a "thumbs up" guy with me.

TED Z

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Posted By: Steve Murray

No edit for you

If my post makes me look stupid then I guess I'm stuck with it. It is not my practice to edit posts for content. It puts subsequent posts, such as yours, appear out of context. I don't like it when it's done to me and I'm sure you wouldn't either.

As for Don, I think he probably knows where I'm coming from.

Edit for spelling.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

It is in a TAMPERED SGC holder--obviously someone removed the card from the holder and replaced it with the reprint. A couple of the posts make it sound like SGC graded this card when Donald himself observes that the card is in a holder that was pried apart and reglued. Let's try to roast the grading services for their own mistakes, not the criminal act of a third party.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The thing I don't get here is I know Donald and he is a very experienced veteran collector/dealer. It took me about 3/4 of a second to look at the picture and see the card is fake. It doesn't even look close to real. I think Don just plain and simply blew it, and I'm sure this is one he wishes he could take back.

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Posted By: PC

Lots of Monday morning QB's here.

Donald -- you're one of the good guys in this hobby, and I'm sorry to see you got taken here. Since the seller took PayPal, it doesn't seem likely that he tampered with the holder, but only the seller knows that for sure. In any event, the seller either did it, or knows who he got the tampered holder from. Definitely pursue the PayPal and credit card refund.

You might also contact SGC, not to recover on the guaranty (which wouldn't apply here), but to see if they are interested in helping determine who tampered with their holder. Perhaps the chain of ownership can be traced starting with the person who submitted the original/authentic Cobb card to SGC. SGC might not tell you who that person was, but they could follow-up directly. The way I see it, the first person up the chain of ownership that doesn't want to cooperate is the guilty party.

Don't write-off SGC's cooperation before asking them. I've seen cards with fake PSA flips on eBay before, and I've also seen people try to sell fake cards in tampered PSA slabs, in each case with full disclosure -- they were passing these of as "novelties". I emailed PSA on two occassions to alert them of this, and each time they killed the auction and sent me a thank you email. The top-tier grading companies have an interest in protecting their trade names and will at times police the misuse of their holders ... if PSA can be responsive I certainly think SGC will be too.

Good luck.

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Posted By: anthony

steve, dont put words in my mouth...i never said anything remotely close to you looking "stupid"...but if you send me a picture...

i know i'm not the only one when i say this but i get tired of seeing post that make others look stupid because they bought a bad card or made a dumb statement or their opinion is not the same as theirs...it just gets old that this place is turning into a "you're wrong" forum

instead of the support posts that donald seems to be getting, some people just like to point out the mistakes...he already knows he got a bad card, and like a previous post says he just blew it this time...

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Posted By: Steve Murray

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Don is one of the great guys in the hobby, and very knowledgeable about cards. He already knows he made a mistake, and instead of keeping it to himself (which I would probably have done out of embarrassment), he has publicized it, like the good citizen he is, to get the word out on this seller, and on this type of scam, and maybe get some advice about recovering his money.

Then some of you know-it-alls kick him around for not realizing the card was an "obvious" fake? Not classy behavior, if you ask me. Try imagining yourself in his position and reread your posts in this thread-- how do you think they would make you feel?

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Posted By: Steve Murray

but I'm stuck with it.

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Posted By: Rob

Build up some FB,then list the fake Cobb and this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/PSA-GRADED-EX-MT-6-1933-GOUDEY-BABE-RUTH-CARD_W0QQitemZ190107140766QQihZ009QQcategoryZ86843 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: E, Daniel

and unlikely any comments here will bum him nearly so much as the choice itself to bid on this card. Definitely a sickening feeling to feel like you've been had - when you absolutely do know better. Hope it dies away soon Donald, try another card or two to soothe the wounds .

I would also make sure you save the image, and not just a copy of the pic. itself from the auction.....there's a fairly simply 'quick key' method (eg. F12 or something) that allows you to do a screen capture of whatever you have up. That way all text, description, pics, etc are saved in their entirety and can be used to support your claims for comp. No one can then say later that you created the image yourself of a tampered with card.

If anyone could help me out with the actual key function, I'd be appreciative.


All the best mate.


Daniel

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Posted By: dennis

i am sure you will get your money back. it's funny how that card was not outed here as a scam b4 the auction ended...so it fooled a lot of people.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Here's a link that describes how to complete a screen capture:


http://graphicssoft.about.com/cs/general/ht/winscreenshot.htm


All the best.


Daniel

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Posted By: Donald Johnson

Thanks for all the support and the sage advice . Tim hit the nail on the head as to my motive in posting. Just wanted to make people aware that this kind of thing can happen when you're in a hurry and that there are still many unscrupulous sellers out there so caveat emptor!

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Posted By: ralph

Donald,
sorry to hear about the ebay ripoff,but "must have been in a rush" ? to the tune of $1,600 +, thats not a small bag of shells.
Wow, I guess some guys throw around cash rather freely

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Posted By: Brett

The card does look pretty fake...

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Let's study this situation some more.....lest it happens again to one of us.

Don was the 27 and 28th bidder....if you review the "Bidding Details" of the prior 26 bids....70% of
them were placed by "veteran" ebayers (FDBK profile #s of 3 or 4 digits).
And, after the bidding hit $600+....100% were from these serious bidders. But, we have no idea who
they are ? This has been one of my real gripes with this new system Ebay has recently featured (when
the bidding amount exceeds $200). Anyhow, with this type of bidding pattern, it is very understandable
how one can get "caught up" in the bidding. After all, all these guys can't be wrong. And, at that point
our emotion prevails over our ability to use common sense judgement in the subject of interest.

A perfect example of this was when I re-discovered all my BB cards from youth in 1977. My first thought
was to sell them (for the big $$$$ I thought they were worth). So, I went to a medium size Show in NJ
with all my Leaf's, Bowman's and Topps. I was "caught up" in the frenzie that followed me by the dealer
offers.

Fortunately, I had the presence of mind to invite my best friend and long-time neighbor to go with me to
this BB card show. At noon we took a break and went to the Hotel bar and I ordered a Jack Daniels and
John a Heineken. Then, John (being the objective one of us that day) gave me some great advice.....
DON'T SELL a single card.

The point I'm trying to make, is sometimes you have to step back from a situation and seek some object-
ivity. And, you will avoid having regrets later.

I took John's advice and have thanked him ever since.

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Posted By: barry arnold

I hate to hear that this happened to you Donald.
I sincerely hope that you get your money back as soon as possible.

all the best,

Barry

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Posted By: anthony

steve, the only thing i'll say about that picture is that you look like an umpire for some reason...

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Posted By: Ken W.

I certainly don't wish to hijack this thread, but I just looked at the link and saw the seller's ID: rangers.1994. About 3 weeks ago I won an ebay auction for the unslabbed card below from a seller called: ranger191. Pretty close. Did I buy a fake? I know it is just a raggedy, old, unimportant W card, and it only set me back about $130, but I REALLY hate being screwed! Any condescending remarks about my intelligence welcomed, as long as they are useful.

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Posted By: dennis

kenw,i believe the card and the seller are fine.

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Posted By: Ken W.

Thanks, Dennis. Appreciate it!