Mastro Auction Descriptions

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter, all anyone wants is for Mastro to disclose what - if anything - they did to the cards in their auction. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Well Doug has said taking out a surface crease or wrinkle is acceptable, so while he can speak for himself, of course, my interpretation of his remarks is that that would be acceptable and not disclosable. Now the only "wrinkle" (HAHA) is the prior PSA grade so I don't know if that would change anything. Presumably not, since I would think at least some percentage of the cards they submit are crack outs and I don't think I have ever seen a grading history disclosed.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

That is my recollection to--Doug said he would get back to us after hearing from SGC and PSA. I will admit to not following the posts on Net54 too closely recently but I do not recall seeing Doug disclose whether his firm's policy will change based upon his discussions with Dave Forman and Joe Orlando.

When I asked Doug this question at the collectors dinner in nyc a while back I got a firm "no comment".

Anybody wonder anymore what Rob Lifson is referring to in his recent letters?

Jim

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Jeff, I hear you, but I am guessing that they see a very successful business model and very little impact to the bottom line from not making these sorts of disclosures, so why WOULD they start disclosing grading histories and bumps and identifying every pressed down corner etc.?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

You think someone who would drop $40,000-$50,000 on a 48 Leaf DiMaggio psa 9 would care that it used to be in a psa 4 holder with a light surface crease.

Doug seems to be saying no--I think he is openly deceiving the buyer by not doing so.

Jim

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter, of course Doug won't provide full disclosure because that would cost Mastro money - and that's all this is about. Same with Doug coming onto the board and 'communicating' with us - it's a PR move solely - and doesn't really provide any useful information.

Very simple: disclose what, if anything, done to the cards. Period.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Hi Jim,

Congratulations on the graduations.

In the case of your 48 Leaf card, there are very few dealer who might not attempt to remove the wrinkle (or pay someone to do it). In fact I know many collectors who would make the same effort and many of the balance wouldn't do it because they couldn't not because they are purists.

I completely understand and respect your opinion on this subject but were Mastro be able to get your Leaf card into an 8 or a 9, like Peter said, it would not be disclosed as it would be one of those undetectable enhancements that cards of all grades ROUTINELY undergo, which Doug, in accordance with the grading companies, does not feel is an alteration.

Best,

Greg

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

If you can't tell and never will be able to tell if an alteration has occurred then why does it matter?

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Dan, does that mean it is ethically OK to alter Jim's card if I can do it really well (as opposed to less well where it would be detected)? There is a certain logic to your argument, but I am troubled where it leads.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Greg,

As always I appreciate your opinions.

I agree many dealers would not attempt this but Doug has admitted he would and you know many others who would do this. I understand this goes on all the time--maybe I should join the dark side.

Dan--so you are saying that as long as you can get it past the grading company or the unsuspecting buyer nothing wrong with taking the creases out of cards?

Jim

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Posted By: Steve Murray

I think what Dan is saying is:

"If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it make a noise".

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

No, I firmly believe it is unethical to alter cards by taking out creases, adding color, et cetera because it is frowned upon in the card hobby. I'm just playing a little devil's advocate here.

Jim has an impressive collection of PSA8's that even he concedes some may have been altered. I just don't think it's worth getting too upset thinking about because it is undetectable and at this point too late to do anything about. At some point if taking out creases or other alterations become completely undetectable then alterations are going to have to become an acceptable part of the hobby....perhaps it already is. As long as higher $$$'s are paid for the higher number then you will ALWAYS have people altering cards. You can't protect them all.

I know that sounds a little like rambling so if you need any clarification I'm sure Joann can translate for me.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

Yes--I have altered PSA cards. Which ones they are I have no idea. Virtually everyone who owns PSA cards has some altered in my opinion. Unless someone like Only Child comes in who knows as much if not more than most top graders, it will remain unknown to most.

I would like to fix things from here Dan. We cannot go back and change history but if the hobby could agree on a set of standards and be vigilant about publicizing and getting rid of the crooks it would be a good start. May be wishful thinking though.

From what I can see Mastronet is more part of the problem than part of the solution.

Jim

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jim, I think the genie is out of the bottle. As long as it's undetectable it is going to go on. That doesn't make it right or ethical, but this hobby is big, and the dollars are even bigger so it will continue unabated until such time our hobby goes the way of Beanie Babies.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

There is only one point I would differ with you on and that is to the highly trained person--like Only Child, Baker, Dave's top graders--it is detectable.

I think the grading companies need to invest the time and effort to be able to detect everything--perhaps as Only Child says--bring a card doctor on staff.

Jim

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Posted By: Joann

Sorry Dan - no translations from me this time. Too much treacherous ground in this thread. I'll stick with the easy stuff!

Joann

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I've always said that the onus falls squarely on the graders, to be as diligent as they possibly can and to be completely detached from any influence any of the major auction houses may have on them. When and if we reach that level, the number of altered cards in holders will approach zero.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

I get your point and in an ideal world thats fine but certain card doctors know more than the graders.

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

It's a give and take battle. The graders and the trimmers are each building better mousetraps, to snare the other guy!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Nothing will ever change because it is in the auction house's interests to sell higher graded cards. PSA doesn't care because their registry has caused the great majority of cards to go to PSA. Just follow the dollar, there's your answer.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Jim- Your statement "I have altered PSA cards" could be taken two ways. I'm assuming that means you possess them, as opposed to you have altered them yourself.

Also, taking Jeff's last point a step further- it seems like the whole dialog about "what is alteration," etc. is driven by the high-grade orgy. If all collectors were pedestrian, this wouldn't be an issue!

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Posted By: Doug Allen

Sorry I missed all the fireworks....involved in family Memorial Day festivities. Seems strange to call them festivities but basically spent the day with the wife and kids. Have a nephew that is a Ranger in Iraq so my thoughts go out to him today.

Anyways, Jim I would be happy to sell your 48 DiMaggio in a PSA 4 holder. I am sure dealers that believed they could get the crease out would bid accordingly.

As indicated earlier I have notified all employees that process cards that any and all alterations that we know of need to be disclosed in the write-up. Just last auction we disclosed that a T206 Plank was restored. If you buy a card in my auction and find a card was altered and this was not disclosed bring it to my attention and I will issue and immediate and full refund...regardless of whether a card grading company noted it or not.

Two more cases in point. After it being pointed out on this forum I offered a full refund for a PSA8 Walter Johnson that I was not comfortable selling. Same with a rare back Elberfeld card (I think it was Broad Leaf 460). I don't hide behind grading services and I am not hiding from my customers.

I am not sure why you choose to beat up on me in this forum. I don't know what else I can do.

Sincerely,

Doug Allen
President
Mastro Auctions

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Doug -- third base!

All we are asking is can Mastro simply state in its descriptions whether or not ANYTHING has been done to the card by Mastro? You keep saying you'll note alterations - but some of us don't define 'alteration' as narrowly as Mastro does.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jeff, it ain't going to happen. When the difference between a 7 and an 8 means thousands of dollars the undetectable alterations are going to continue. What do they have to gain by mentioning the alteration when they are offering full money back guarantees? 99.9% of collectors will never catch the alteration.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Well, integrity for one.

But I agree, Dan. I'm just not certain how many more ways I can say the same thing and have Doug claim (again) that he is simply being attacked without answering my question.

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Posted By: Sean C

If you were referring to lot 1777, it would have been hard not to admit it, since the Plank card was in a PSA case labeled Authentic - Altered .

What we as customers are requesting is that Mastro Auctions properly identify any and all restoration work (from wax stain removal and "spooning" creases to power erasing and paper addition) performed by Mastro employees or outside sources hired by Mastro on any item listed in one of your catalogs as to what work was performed on it.

(Edited to remove redundancy)

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Doug,

You are smarter than that.

You know what you can do and that is come clean. What do Dave and Joe say about your practice of taking creases out of the card. You said you would stop I believe if they disapproved. I think you also said you would report back to us which you haven't. Yet you have gone silent and all we hear is no comment. That hardly inspires confidence over what you are doing to the cards that are given to you.

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

Wouldn't it be easier and cleaner to simply submit cards to the grading services as they are received and do nothing to them? Can't consignor and auction house agree to that based on pre-established company policy?

If a card has a bent corner, that's the way you send it in. If it has a wrinkle, it is submitted with a wrinkle.

Do consignors send material in because they assume it will be made better by the auction house? And I'm not even singling out Mastro or any one in particular, I'm just talking about a general policy. I send cards in for consignors as a service. That is my sole responsbility. I've never told a consignor I will get you a better grade, or anything to that effect. And that's the way it should be across the board.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Suppose Jim wanted to maximize the value of his DiMaggio. Suppose it had a surface wrinkle that did not break the surface and in your expert judgment Doug it could be safely removed and not detected. Would Mastro Auctions do that for Jim and then resubmit the card? And if so would they disclose in the auction that it had been a PSA 4 earlier but a wrinkle had been removed? I think that is what people want to know and understand.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

Doug already has stated that Mastronet would remove these.

If he states differently here it is a change in policy by Mastronet. Their prior policy has been to take them out and not disclose this in the auction. If this is wrong I challenge anyone to find a description where it says a crease has been taken out of the card.

Jim

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Barry: "Wouldn't it be easier and cleaner to simply submit cards to the grading services as they are received and do nothing to them?"

Every company in business looks to maximize earnings....easier and cleaner? yes.... business smart? no!

Dan, concerning "undetectable alterations"... over the years I have seen wrinkles, stains and creases re-appear in high-end holders, so there is the time factor as well.

Jim...good to see you back!


Frank

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Posted By: barrysloate

Frank- I look to maximize earnings too...and if I decided to rob a bank, my net income would increase considerably.

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Posted By: Cobby33

So long as there are folks who will pay BIG $$ for high-grade material, these practices will continue, it's that simple. Once the demand for these cards decrease (due to lack of confidence on the restoration/grading processes, or whatever), these processes will stop, as there will be no incentive to do so. Right now, the guidelines are so vague, that people can make these "alterations" with a straight face.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Perhaps the world has tilted off its axis

"I think the grading companies need to invest the time and effort to be able to detect everything--perhaps as Only Child says--bring a card doctor on staff."

That is exactly what casinos do--they hire card counters, mechanics and cheats to work the eye in the sky to look for other cheats. Even the FBI does--anyone seen "Catch Me If You Can"? No one knows the anatomy of cheating better than a qualified cheater in the same field.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

You guys aren't getting it: PSA, et al. will never spend extra money to detect trimming and alterations unless they are SURE it will generate more income for them. And until they see a drop in revenue due to their failure to detect trimming and alterations, business as usual will be the theme.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

If PSA put a card doctor on staff to detect alterations their business would drop off signifigantly.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff- if any kind of big scandal breaks and PSA is found to be a participant in any number of unethical or unprofessional practices (and I could cite many examples) their business is not going to be worth all that much. They need to balance revenue with offering the proper service, and at the same time to stay squeaky clean. It can't be the wild west in Newport Beach. That won't last long, and it will eventually catch up with them.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Somehow I don't think PSA is all that concerned about scandal, etc. Their untoward relationship with Memory Lane is case in point.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Not all inclusive but here are cards deemed un-gradeable by PSA (taken from their site). Unless they plan to change the rules, this should eliminate all the the arguement if wrinkle / crease removal is considered altering. It's in black in white on PSA's card grading standards page. Please note item N-5.

____________________

NO GRADE DEFINITIONS
If the grade of your card is available and is listed with one of the following grades, this card was determined to be un-gradable for the following reasons.


N-1 Evidence of Trimming - When a card’s edge has been altered, a card doctor may use scissors, scalpel, cutter, or any other cutting instrument. A trimmed card may show one of the following: Hook up or down, have one razor sharp edge, a difference in toning along the edge, a wavy look.

N-2 Evidence of Restoration - When a card’s paper stock is built up - for example, when ripped corners are built up to look like new corners.

N-3 Evidence of Recoloration - Where a card’s color has been artificially improved.

N-4 Questionable Authenticity - This is the term used when a card is counterfeit.

N-5 Altered Stock - This term is used when the paper stock is altered in one or more of the following ways: Stretching and trimming, recoloring and restoring, trimming and recoloring, restoring an trimming, crease or wrinkle is pressed out, or gloss is enhanced.

_______________________


Is it considered altering when it can't be detected. IMO it is when you say your doing it. Why don't we just call a spade a spade?


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

You are right, and this was pointed out to Doug when the topic was raised last time by Jim C. I don't recall his response, if he in fact made one.

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Posted By: barrysloate

PSA is worried about their bottom line. A scandal has an amazing ability to compromise that bottom line (only speaking hypothetically, of course).

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

My review of the prior thread suggests there was no direct response to the apparent conflict between item N-5 and Mastro Auctions' definition of acceptable "preparation" that need not be disclosed -- although I read it relatively quickly just now. Perhaps we can get some clarification this time around?

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Posted By: leon

You said

"Is it considered altering when it can't be detected. IMO it is when you say your doing it. Why don't we just call a spade a spade?"


So does that mean if someone doesn't say anything and they are altering a card it's ok?

For the record I still don't have a problem with the first tier "restoration" that Dave Forman spoke about on the board before. If I recall correctly he wouldn't endorse any of it but said if they can't detect it....well, they can't detect it...and he considered the first tier much less offensive then the 2nd or 3rd tiers...which everyone feels is wrong....regards

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Posted By: Sean C

I don't care whether it's an attempt to remove a wrinkle or wholesale whitening of a card: to do so and offer it for sale without proper disclosure is wrong. While altered cards have a place in the market, they just need to be properly identified as such.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Of course you can sometimes sell a card that has been altered but you are not aware of it. Then if the crease magically reappears down the road you can get blamed for it too.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Here is SGC's partial take on the subject (again, taken from their site).

SGC Rejection Codes:
Code Description Tag
A Altered ALT
B Bleached BLE
C Color Added COL
E Power Erased ERA
G Minimum Graded Not Met MIN
L Too Large to Holder (Oversized) LRG
N Miscut MIS
M Cannot/Do Not Grade NO
P Pressed PRS

____________

For the record, my personal opinion on what is or is not acceptable is irrelevant. I'm just showing what the written standards are verses what is being openly admitted. Kudo’s to Doug for saying what is being done.

For what it's worth I really enjoy the flamboyant auction descriptions. I find them very entertaining and try to read each one regardless of what is being sold.

Oh...hey there Jim!


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Kevin, what is being done by Doug? Maybe I missed something.

For the umpteenth time, all we want to know is will Mastro disclose if they have done any work -- any work at all -- on a card after receiving it from a consignor and prior to sale in their auctions?

Now I know Doug will come back and try to define 'work' for us.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Grading companies (at least SGC) will enforce the community standard for pre-war card review. If you want to change the standard, then your beef is with your favorite grading company. If the standard is an attempt to enforce a moral code of undetectable crimes, then you have gotten much further than any civilized society I am aware of in terms of its statutory laws. If you stick with the detectable crimes, supported by a money-backed guarantee, that's as good as it will ever get -- even if you create a collector's society of purity police. Because, at the end of the day, the purity police will have to convince the grading company that its standards need to change; and the only standards that will be enforceable with any level of consistency will be those alterations that are detectable with any level of consistency.

The problem I have with these kinds of threads is that the temptation is to rehash all of the previous polls and debates about what the community standard is and should be for various forms of card doctoring -- from gunk removal and erasing pencil marks to spooning wrinkles, recoloring and adding paper, the views of the community are not uniform and the passions for and against such practices are widespread and heartfelt. It is absolutely vital to understand the standards applied by your favorite grading company to the cards it reviews. If you are uncomfortable, then you need either a new grading company or to have your grading company change its standards to meet your needs.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Hey Kevin(my hero),

How can you give Kudos to Mastronet for openly admitting to altering cards and trying to get them graded by PSA in direct violation of PSAs standards?

It is of course preferable if Mastronet would cease and desist from altering cards at all but given the choice of taking creases out of cards and not telling anyone(their prior practice) and taking creases out and disclosing it, I would take the latter course every time.

Jim

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Kudo's was only given because he has the guts to say it in an open forum.

<"What is being done by Doug?"> Just using Doug as a reference link to Mastronet.


<"the views of the community are not uniform and the passions for and against such practices are widespread and heartfelt. It is absolutely vital to understand the standards applied by your favorite grading company to the cards it reviews. If you are uncomfortable, then you need either a new grading company or to have your grading company change its standards to meet your needs.">


Well said!