Show us your AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards ?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Theoretically, it is possible that 110 subjects in the T206 set can be found with an American Beauty 460 back.

But, far less than that have been confirmed. As, it is one of the tougher backs and we do not really know how
many T206's were printed with this back. Also, since this back has a Factory 42 (North Carolina) identification,
we can presume these cards were issued at the very end of the T206 production run (circa 1911). Therefore,
as is usual with end-of-production issues, these cards appear to have been "short-printed".

Show or tell us about your American Beauty 460 cards....graded ones....naked ones....near mint ones....Vg-Ex
ones...."beaters".
We are not too fussy, any condition will do....lets see how many different ones we can account for ?

I'll start with mine......

Abbaticcio (blue slv)
Devore
Frill
Jordan (bat)
Lake (St Lo-No ball)
Leach (cap)
Needham
Payne
F. Smith (Chi & Bos)
Wheat

TED Z

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
Here you go...









I'll add a list soon.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Brian E.

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Posted By: steve yawitz

Funny you bring this up, Ted, as just the other day on the CU T206 thread I was saying that AB 460's are an underrated and deceptively difficult back. I'll go a bit out of my way for American Beauties and still only have two 460's out of about 315 T206's:





http://imageevent.com/yawie99

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Posted By: Eric Angyal

I think if you look long enough, you will realize that the AB 350 backs without the frame are even tougher than the 460's. Just my 2 cents.

Eric

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Posted By: Rob

All I've got is the Jordan batting ... nothing different

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Posted By: Mike (18colt)

I have two -- Cobb (bat off shoulder; worse shape than the one posted earlier) and a Steinfeldt (batting pose).

Mike (18colt)

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Well I have 2...

Duffy and Cobb bat off shoulder...

Here's the Cobb

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

It has always seemed to me that most of the Duffy white border cards I saw had AB backs. Way disproportionate to what I'd expect. Maybe I just thought that because I knew mine had an AB back. Anyone else notice that?

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Posted By: Mike

Frank,
I have a Duffy in a PSA 5 that also has an American Beauty 460 back.
Stay Cool,
Mike Gray

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Posted By: peter ullman

here are my ab's!

pete in mn

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Posted By: B.C.D

The McGraw is by far the most common in the 460 series!

BcD

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
Here's my list:

Hugh Duffy (HOF)
Russ Ford
Bill Bergen (catching)
Josh DeVore
John Hummel
John McGraw Glove at Hip (HOF)
Francis (Big Jeff) Pfeffer
Jimmy Sheckard (glove showing)
Hughie Jennings Two Hands (HOF)
Rube Manning (pitching)
George Mullin (with bat)
Barney Pelty (vertical photo)
Lee Tannehill (Chicago, Tannehill on front)
Frank Smith (Chicago & Boston)

I think I have a few more, but can't get to them right now.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted and Scot,
I think you are right about the super prints, as all of mine are 350's with frame...

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Frank,
Nice Cobb.... You must have snagged that one before Brian E. started hoarding them. Be well Brian

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Truth is that it was given to me by a good friend, and great collector. I got it just before my second round of heart surgery. The hard case it was sent in had a Post-It note on it, saying I could have it IF I survived the surgery, otherwise he wanted it back. He was giving me something to live for. The Post-It note is in my small box that holds almost all of my white border cards. I recall when I first saw the card, with others in a plastic sheet in a notebook, years before it was given to me. It was an "extra" he had. I pointed at it and told him it had an American Beauty back. He asked how could I know that. Their thinness is obvious, if you know to look for it. Although at times I have seen other cards that had been trimmed down to size.

Thank you, Brian, for the kind words.

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Posted By: leon

Schlei in vg....

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Frank,
Great story... My Dad had a by pass 8 years ago Christmas, so I know what you mean. He's doing great and I hope you are too. Be well Brian


PS The Cobb is fantastic, but the note is priceless...

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Posted By: Art M.

Hi Ted,
Here is my list of American Beauty 460 cards:

Burch, fielding
Crandall with cap
Crawford batting
Doyle, portrait
Jennings, 1 hand
Jennings, 2 hands
Jordan, batting
Lake, no ball, st. louis
Latham
Mcquillan, batting
Mullin, batting
Pelty, vertical
Willetts
Wiltse, port. with cap

Super print:
Cobb, red, AB350 with frame

Art

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

That cinches it for me....if you, and BRIAN W, do not have any of the Six Super-Prints with American Beauty 460
backs......
then we can only conclude they were never printed.

Thanks,

TED Z


P.S......I haven't forgotten about the Willetts card....I'll email you.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I have the following:

Duffy
Crandall w/Cap
Pfeffer
Manning
Ford
Conroy w/Bat


I think that is all of them.

Lee

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Here's a compilation of the inputs so far on this thread:

Abbaticcio (Blue Sleeves) -- 460-only
Bergen (Catching) -- 460-only
Burch (Fielding)
Chance (Batting) -- 460-only
Chase (Trophy) -- 460-only
Cobb (Bat Off)
Conroy (With Bat)
Crandall (With Cap) -- 460-only
Crawford (Batting)
Devore -- 460-only
Doyle (Portrait)
Duffy -- 460-only
Ford --460-only
Frill -- 460-only
Gandil -- 460-only
Geyer -- 460-only
Hummell -- 460-only
Jennings (One Hand)
Jennings (Both Hands)
Jordan (Batting)
Lake (No Ball)
Latham -- 460-only
Leach (Bending)
Leifield (Batting)
Manning (Pitching)
Mullin (With Bat)
McGraw (Glove at Hip) -- 460-only
McQuillan (With Bat)
Needham -- 460-only
Payne -- 460-only
Pelty (Vertical)
Pfeffer -- 460-only
Schulte (Back View) -- 460-only
Sheckard (Glove Shows) -- 460-only
Schlei (Batting) -- 460-only
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) -- 460-only
Steinfeldt (With Bat)
Stovall (Batting) -- 460-only
Tannehill (Chicago No "L") -- 460-only
Wheat -- 460-only
Willetts
Wiltse (Portrait w/Cap) -- 460-only

Ted, Can you supplement with my spreadsheet data, Bill's superset data and data from your other sources?

Scot

7/14/07 Edited to add Mike, Jim and Bill's inputs.

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Posted By: Mike Ellis

Ted, I have only one. Stovall batting SGC 50. Mike

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Posted By: Jim Rivera

Ted,
Here is my list of AB 460

Crandall cap
Ford
Gandil
Jennings one hand
Lake
Latham
McGraw glove at hip

Eric,

I agree the 350 no frame is a little more difficult than the 460 but still not rare.

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Posted By: leon

sorry, I am not necessarily a t206 guy...my Schlei is batting

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Posted By: Pete Z.

Mine is a wheat

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Posted By: Bill

American Beauty is my favorite back. I have 11 Series 350 with frame, 23 350 Series No Frame, and here are my Series 460:

Chance (Batting)
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
McGraw (Glove on Hip)
Schulte (Back View)

There have been 51 different AB 460 recorded on the Super Set.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Leon,

Thanks for the clarification.

Jim,

Is your Lake with ball or no ball?

Scot

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Posted By: barry arnold

Mine is Chase trophy---looks like Jeff L.'s above--even the same grade.

all the best,

barry

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Merged list of Scot Reader's SS, Bill's SS, my data, and all your inputs. Nice all-around teamwork......
Thanks everyone, this is a good start.

7/14/07....confirmed American Beauty 460 subjects = 59

Abbaticcio (Blue Sleeves) -- 460-only
Ames (hands above head)
Baker
Bergen (Catching) -- 460-only
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Bridwell (cap) -- 460-only
Burch (Fielding)
Camnitz (hands up) -- 460-only
Chance (Batting) -- 460-only
Chase (Trophy) -- 460-only
Cobb (Bat Off)
Conroy (With Bat)
Crandall (With Cap) -- 460-only
Crawford (Batting)
Devore -- 460-only
Doyle (Portrait) -- 460-only
Duffy -- 460-only
Elberfeld (Wash-fldg)
Ford --460-only
Frill -- 460-only
Gandil -- 460-only
Geyer -- 460-only
Howell (hands at waist) -- 460-only
Hummell -- 460-only
Jennings (One Hand)
Jennings (Both Hands)
Jordan (Batting)
Lake (No Ball)
Latham -- 460-only
Leach (Bending)
Leifield (Batting)
Marquard (follow thru) -- 460-only
Manning (Pitching)
McGraw (glove at hip) -- 460-only
McQuillan (With Bat)
Meyers -- 460-only
Mullin (With Bat)
Needham -- 460-only
Oldring (batting) -- 460-only
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Payne -- 460-only
Pelty (Vertical)
Pfeffer -- 460-only
Pfeister (throwing)
Schulte (Back View) -- 460-only
Sheckard (Glove Shows) -- 460-only
Schlei (Batting) -- 460-only
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) -- 460-only
H. Smith (Brooklyn) -- 460-only
Snodgrass (catching)
Steinfeldt (With Bat)
Stovall (Batting) -- 460-only
Tannehill (Chicago No "L") -- 460-only
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Wheat -- 460-only
Willetts
Wiltse (Portrait w/Cap) -- 460-only

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Posted By: Jim Rivera

Scot,

Lake is ST. Louis no Ball and I have this card with AB 460, Brown Lenox and Uzit!!

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Posted By: leon

I assume the "only" at the end of some of the cards means it only comes in the 460 series. Is that what it's there for? regards

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Of the 110 - T206's that possibly can be found with the AB 460 back, 48 of them are from the very last Series,
and these have been identified with "460-only".

The 62 other T206's can have either a 350, or a 460 back.

TED Z

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I used to own a Manning AB 350 & 460. How many others come in both backs?

Lee

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I know of about 20 that have both AB backs. But, I'm sure that of the 56 - 350/460 cards, there are many more.

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

LEE

There aren't too many, the following T206's have been confirmed
with both AB 350 and AB 460 backs.

Baker
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fldg)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash-fldg)
Jennings (dancing)
Jordan (bat)
Lake (St Lo-No ball)
Manning (pitching)
Mullin (bat)
Pelty (vert)
Pfeister (throwing(
Steinfeldt (bat)
Wagner (bat on right)
Willetts

TED Z

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Posted By: Darren

add to the list

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Merged list of Scot Reader's SS, Bill's SS, my data, and all your inputs. Nice all-around Net54 teamwork......
Thanks everyone, this is a good start.

UPDATED....7/15/07....confirmed American Beauty 460 subjects = 60

Abbaticcio (Blue sleeves) ---- 460-only
Ames (hands above head)
Baker
Bergen (catching) ---- 460-only
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Bridwell (cap) ---- 460-only
Burch (fielding)
Camnitz (hands up) ---- 460-only
Chance (batting) ---- 460-only
Chase (Trophy) ---- 460-only
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crandall (cap) ---- 460-only
Crawford (batting)
Devore ---- 460-only
Doyle (portrait) ---- 460-only
Duffy ---- 460-only
Elberfeld (Wash-fldg)
Ford --- 460-only
Frill ---- 460-only
Gandil ---- 460-only
Geyer ---- 460-only
Howell (hands at waist) ---- 460-only
Hummell ---- 460-only
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (dancing)
Jordan (batting)
Lake (No ball)
Latham ---- 460-only
Leach (bending)
Leifield (batting)
Marquard (follow thru) ---- 460-only
Manning (pitching)
McGraw (glove at hip) ---- 460-only
McQuillan (bat)
Meyers ---- 460-only
Mullin (bat)
Needham ---- 460-only
Oldring (batting) ---- 460-only
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Payne ---- 460-only
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeffer ---- 460-only
Pfeister (throwing)
Schulte (back view) ---- 460-only
Sheckard (glove shows) ---- 460-only
Schlei (batting) ---- 460-only
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) ---- 460-only
H. Smith (Brooklyn) ---- 460-only
Snodgrass (catching)
Steinfeldt (bating)
Stovall (batting) ---- 460-only
Tannehill (Chicago No "L") ---- 460-only
Tinker (bat off)
Tinker (bat on) ---- 460-only
Wagner (bat on right)
Wheat ---- 460-only
Willetts
Wiltse (Portrait w/Cap) -- 460-only

Series breakdown

350/460 = 26
460-only= 34

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Thanks for your Tinker....your card brings the count up to 60 confirmed American Beauty 460 cards.

TED Z

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

Based on the trend, I'm guessing that all 48 of the 460-only subjects will eventually show-up, while a fraction of the 350/460 regular print subjects will reveal themselves. Very interesting.

Scot

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I agree that we can expect at least 47 of the 48 (you can never be sure about Kleinow) in the 460-only series
to be found with AB 460 backs.

And, I expect that only about 50% of the 350/460 series subjects will be found with AB 460 backs.

I hope we will receive some more inputs with subjects we haven't confirmed yet ? ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,
You're right about Kleinow (Boston).
Since he is a 460-only with a 350/460 RP profile he may or may not emerge.
Scot

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I thought you might agree with my skepticism regarding Kleinow. I would have also included Smith (C & B)
with a big "questionmark"; but, I have him with an AB 460 back.

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I have 10 - American Beauty 460 cards to start with....here are some of them. And, thanks to the response to
this Thread, I am encouraged to start my next T206 adventure trying to complete a sub-set of this T-brand.

My projection is that all 48 subjects in the 460-only series and approx. 50% of the 56 subjects in the 350/460
series comprise a complete run. Only a total of 76 cards....sounds easy....but, don't bet on it.

TED Z

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Posted By: Paul S

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

With no more postings of AB 460 cards here.....I'll bring up this comparison I had alluded to in a prior Thread.
The Red Cobb with Ty Cobb back and the American Beauty 460 back have these three aspects in common....

1....Green Ink

2....Very similar lettering style (namely C - R - S - T - Y letters)

3....Both backs are Factory No. 42, 4th Dist. North Carolina (Liggett & Myers Tobacco plant)

It is my understanding that the cards with AB 460 backs were in the final production runs of T206's (1911).
And, these cards would have been found inserted in American Beauty cigarette packs bearing the new L & M
inscription (instead of ATC).
And, I believe a linkage exists between the design of the Red Cobb (with Ty Cobb back) and the AB 460 design.
These similarities are just too coincidental for this not to be true.

I'm sure what I have said here will invite some debate....but heck, this is why we have this forum.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Let's not give up on this Thread, yet......one more go around.

I expect at least a dozen more American Beauty 460 subjects will show up. I'll post the latest updated
list of confirmed backs.

So, how about it Net54er's....check-it-out and let us see your AB 460 cards ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

UPDATED....7/23/07....confirmed American Beauty 460 subjects = 61

Abbaticcio (Blue sleeves) ---- 460-only
Ames (hands above head)
Baker
Bergen (catching) ---- 460-only
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Bridwell (cap) ---- 460-only
Burch (fielding)
Camnitz (hands up) ---- 460-only
Chance (batting) ---- 460-only
Chase (Trophy) ---- 460-only
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crandall (cap) ---- 460-only
Crawford (batting)
Devore ---- 460-only
Doyle (portrait) ---- 460-only
Duffy ---- 460-only
Elberfeld (Wash-fldg)
Ford ---- 460-only
Frill ---- 460-only
Gandil ---- 460-only
Geyer ---- 460-only
Howell (hands at waist) ---- 460-only
Hummell ---- 460-only
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (dancing)
Jordan (batting)
Lake (No ball)
Latham ---- 460-only
Leach (bending)
Leifield (batting)
Marquard (follow thru) ---- 460-only
Manning (pitching)
McGraw (glove at hip) ---- 460-only
McQuillan (bat)
Meyers ---- 460-only
Mullin (bat)
Needham ---- 460-only
Oldring (batting) ---- 460-only
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Payne ---- 460-only
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeffer ---- 460-only
Pfeister (throwing)
Schaefer (Washington) ---- 460-only
Schulte (back view) ---- 460-only
Sheckard (glove shows) ---- 460-only
Schlei (batting) ---- 460-only
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) ---- 460-only
H. Smith (Brooklyn) ---- 460-only
Snodgrass (catching)
Steinfeldt (batting)
Stovall (batting) ---- 460-only
Tannehill (Chicago No "L") ---- 460-only
Tinker (bat off)
Tinker (bat on) ---- 460-only
Wagner (bat on right)
Wheat ---- 460-only
Willetts
Wiltse (Portrait w/Cap) ---- 460-only

Series breakdown

350/460 = 26
460-only= 35

TED Z

Edited to add Schaefer

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Man it looks like I should have went after the Ab 460's instead of the Cycle 460s, seems to quite a few less cards to get a hold of.

Lee