PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

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Posted By: JimCrandell

What do you mean we?

I don't.

The PSA Set Registry trumps all.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

MY GOD!!!!! WOW!!!

Nothing more to add.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Corey,

If not already is just a dumb, uninformed statement.

Over time? 1 year, 20 years? No time soon unless something changes dramatically.

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Posted By: Steve

Joe replied to my email and he said:

The warranty applies to EVERYTHING we look at. If the graders determine that be the case then the warranty applies.


I have taken the liberty and forwarded the email to Barry Sloate. That way no one can say that I am making up what was said
afterall one could say that they have 2 Wagners.


I hope that this now puts this issue to rest.


Of course their will be those that will tear his reply apart and ask 10 more questions.


I hope I have helped.


What they do behind closed doors, again I have no idea.



Steve

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Steve, I don't mean to split hairs but if PSA finds that an altered card is in one of their holders will they refund the cost of the card to the buyer or will they simply refund SMR value?

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Posted By: barrysloate

I responded to Steve's email that Joe's answer was unclear. What exactly is that warranty?

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Steve,

Thank you for following up on that.

Does Barry have permission to post the email?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, I suspect that if an altered card in a PSA holder was sold in a Mastro auction for, let's say, 10K, PSA won't be refunding that money anytime soon. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

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Posted By: Steve

Barry can do as he pleases.

Now it is the warranty that is unclear...............



Steve

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Steve, I'm sure you can appreciate that a warranty is not a warranty if one purchases an altered PSA card for 10K and PSA offers 2K to take it off your hands.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Corey- I deleted Steve's email after I responded to him and for some reason can't find it. It was just a single sentence, to the effect that if PSA finds something on a resubmitted card, the warranty will apply.

But I have no idea what that warranty is.

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Posted By: leon

I am not sure but I think the warranty is 3 yrs or 36,000 miles, whichever comes first....

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Posted By: barrysloate

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

I'm going to choose to not read into this anything other that PSA intends to act in a completely reputable manner. They will take out of circulation re-submitted cards that they determine are altered and, pursuant to their warranty, offer fair compensation to the card owner.

So this being the case, I assume then that anybody re-submitting his/her cards will not only have no problem with PSA checking for and removing from circulation those that are altered, but indeed will insist that PSA do so. It would be the ultimate win-win. The hobby will win because altered cards are being removed from circulation. And the card owner will win because he/she will (i) have the piece of mind that his/her cards (many of which might have been slabbed in grading's early years when grading company's were not as skilled at detecting alterations) are being re-examined pursuant to current standards, (ii) will be fairly compensated for his/her altered cards and thus will not be asked to take a financial hit, and (iii) have the satisfaction of acting in a manner consistent with the best interests of the hobby.

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Posted By: Tom Nieves

The PSA Financial Guarantee Of Grade & Authenticity

The PSA Financial Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder.

PSA guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

http://psacard.com/verify.chtml

//////////////////////////////////////////////////

Corey, unlike SGC's guarantee, PSA's is not limited to 30 days and the original submitter. And I'm quite sure you won't find any newspaper articles about Joe Orlando restoring cards. Just something to think about...

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Thanks for that information.

This is the SGC guaranty:

"SGC guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the original submitter of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the original submitter may resubmit that card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade. THIS RESUBMISSION MUST BE REQUESTED WITHIN 30 DAYS OF RECEIPT FROM SGC." (sic)

I agree with you how it appears to read and I have a call into SGC to request clarification. If in fact their policy is to not stand behind altered cards beyond the 30-day period or if sent in by a non-original submitter, then I have a problem with that. Alterations that get by grading companies by their nature are not readily obvious, and I don't see why somebody relying on SGC's expertise should be without recourse if through no fault of their own either the alteration is discovered outside the 30-day period or the card sent in by a non-original submitter.

As to your remarks about restoring cards, please elaborate.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

PSA has always had a guarantee. It used to be on their website in several different places with a simple explanation. It was also footnoted in their financial statements. I am not sure if the guarantee is still in either of those places. However, present or not, I am very confident that Joe's claim as to a warranty, is nothing more than empty words.

Does anyone actually believe that Joe would actually put in writing that they did not have a guarantee or warranty? Or that upon resubmission for the 1/2 grade that they will not look for altered cards and remove them from circulation? PSA is a business and no different than SGC and they will buy back cards when they have to or are made to.

On several instances I have submitted the same card multiple times to GAI, SGC and PSA and all too frequently results in completely inconsistent grading results. Not only do the grading companies not agree with one another but upon resubmission to the grading company the card was originally slabbed by, the card comes back a different grade or is then rejected. Grading companies are merely issuing an opinion which is not the same as an absolute. That gives them a lot of wiggle room for making "judgment errors" which may not be able to be proved. And certainly not easily proved while a card is sealed.

Bottom line is the buy back policy for any company for altered or over graded cards is employed ONLY when one of the two scenarios exist (1)not buying it back is not economically feasible or (2)not buying the card back had certain and sudden adverse effects on public opinion.

I don't see any grading company actively looking to buy back cards, expensive or not, in order to clean up the hobby. If it makes all of you more comfortable to think that a real guarantee is in place because it is printed someplace, great. With the sheer number of cards I see floating around that appear altered or at best significantly over graded, my guarantee is that more than 99% of them would never be reacquired by the grading company who graded them.

Greg

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Posted By: Steve

Jeff I agree with you.


My only problem with this was how some people jumped to conclusions

stating that PSA would not take cards out of circulation that they found to be

altered/counterfeit during this resub program.


The fact of the matter is that they never said any such thing and that is what

I as trying to convey all along. Will they? Who knows?

Saying your card(s) will not be downgraded means simply that. It certainly does not mean

that if they find a card that they now feel is altered/counterfeit that they would

send it back with a wink.

And it was clarified by Joe in his return email to me in which he answered my simple and straightforward question.

" Joe what happens if PSA finds during this resub program an altered/ counterfeit card?


Anyway, BOTN as usual is correct too.


Both SGC and PSA keep the warranties vague.

Both are the best we have in 3rd party grading.

Steve

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Posted By: barrysloate

One of the things I don't understand about the warranties is that if a grading company is forced to buy back a card, at what level will it be?

Let's say you bought a card years ago for $200 and today it is fairly worth $1000. If that card is subsequently deemed altered, what can you reasonably expect to recoup?

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

"PSA guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA."

Those words, as posted by Tom, are part of PSA's guaranty. Clearly there is potentially a big loophole -- they can always argue that they graded the card in accordance with their standards and under their procedures, and still missed the alteration. So tough luck.

I don't think though it would end there, though. Inasmuch as many alterations are black and white matters that can be proven as a matter of law, PSA would have a heck of a hard time explaining how they missed such an alteration in this instance but caught it in others. And, even if they could explain, that would be a "win the battle, lose the war scenario" because what they would be arguing is that their standards and procedures are inadequate to catch scientifically detectable alterations.

So, bottom line. If I had altered PSA cards that I could PROVE are altered, I'd return them to PSA and invoke the guarantee.

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Posted By: James Gallo

I have been keeping up with this thread and in my opinion this would solve all the problems.

Upon resubmition of any card if PSA finds the card to be altered they buy it back at an agreed upon cash price based on what the card was graded at the first time around. It would not be hard to make a few phone calls to some of the big dealers and auction houses and get some numbers for a card and then agree to a price. EVERYONE knows that the SMR is a joke price wise and that PSA does not care to put any work into it.

PSA should desire that all there cards are correctly graded and so should the owner of the card. I bought 5 cards back to PSA last year at the national because I thought they were OVER graded!!! They found none to be over graded which I still find to be laughable. Regardless if there was a risk of your cards going down a grade or up wouldn't that be what you would want. Do you want your cards to be graded correctly I know I do.

The final solution to this is that if any card is down graded PSA compensates you with submission credits. This would put a minor burden on them capital wise and would only encourage you to submit more cards.

In the end it is all about consumer confidence and if that does not exist then there is a big problem.

I have talked to SGC in the past about a misgraded card. Although it was not with Dave F and it was not in great deal it seemed clear to me that if a card was found to be misgraded they would fix it and compensate the owner.

The end result is that I feel both companies will deal with the guanentee on a case by case basis and both leave a lot to interpretation.

Lastly, I see PSA losing ground to beckett in modern cards and SGC in pre war, so they many continue to hold the 40-70's era's but the rest are not as impacted by the registry and the prices are adjusting so that psa card do sell for either less or about the same as SGC and BGS cards of the same grade.

James G

PS Has Joe called Leon back yet? IMO that is really bad as Leon is not some no name and also rather rude of Joe.

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Steve

Corey


I have a minor question, how many PSA graded cards do you own and how many

cards did you resubmit?


Steve

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Posted By: leon

Joe O never called me back. Some might say that it was a stacked deck and I wouldn't be fair or objective and it was a no win for him. That is far from the truth. I would have reported back as to exactly what he said and would have even made sure by reading back his quote(s) to him to be addressed on the board so as NOT to misinterpret anything. I am not sure how I could have been more fair. Also, this board is very open and Joe could even come onto this board and make one statement about their company policies......It can be done effectively and has been done in the past....best regards

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Your damages would be to put you in the same position you would have been in had the grading company not missed the alteration when you first submitted the card. That would be then $200 plus accrued interest thereon (and the grading company would be entitled to sell the card and retain the proceeds). You would not be entitled to lost profits (i.e., the difference between what you paid for the card and what it is worth today). The reason for that is if the grading company had detected the alteration at the outset, you would never have purchased the card and therefore would never have had the opportunity to earn that profit. In regard to an argument that you would have put the $200 into another card that would have similarly appreciated, damages such as that would be regarded as too speculative and therefore unawardable.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Steve,

To answer your question, I own one card that is in an altered holder. And I own a N28 set of 50, only the baseball of which are slabbed. I have not re-submitted those cards. The provenance of that set is that it came from a long-time collector who had it in his possession for many years, so I have a high comfort level none of the cards have been altered.

EDITED to add:

James, interesting though that in regard to the Lionel Carter collection, arguably the most significant offering of high grade post-war cards in recent memory, Mastro chose to go with SGC over PSA.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

Sorry to interrupt this thread with a scan.

PSA. Aren't they the guys we trust to detect evidence of trimming?

Are there specific written criteria, invariable from day to day, which the PSA graders will use to differentiate 8s from 8.5s?

Or do they just wing it?

Seems like a pretty small distinction to make.

Can the difference between an 8 and an 8.5 of the same card be seen by looking at scans? Can the difference be seen in an auction catalog? Can the difference be seen inside the holder? Can the difference be seen outside the holder? Are these distinctions worth paying for?

Can these tiny distinctions be trusted when other more easily detectable differences are sometimes missed?



Each to his own, I guess.

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Posted By: Steve

I agree with you how it appears to read and I have a call into SGC to request clarification.




Corey any word on your call into SGC?


Bruce

I seem to recall that SGC also has blundered big too.


Steve

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Dave Forman and I had been playing telephone tag and we finally spoke this morning. He has authorized me to post the following information.

The SGC guaranty quoted earlier is the guaranty SGC had when he bought the company. It is not indicative of their current policy and they will update their website to reflect this. Under the current guaranty, there is no 30-day period and it will apply to non-original submitters. In fact, Dave described to me a recent situation where SGC honored the guaranty and bought back a number of trimmed cards that were slabbed in 1999.

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Posted By: Steve

That is great to know, btw didn't he buy this company almost 3 years ago?

I would have thought something as important as a warranty would have been updated long ago.

Better late then never I guess.

For the life of me I can't even find the current PSA one.

Steve

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Posted By: Anthony N.

<<James, interesting though that in regard to the Lionel Carter collection, arguably the most significant offering of high grade post-war cards in recent memory, Mastro chose to go with SGC over PSA.>>

In most cases, but the '41 Goudeys were in PSA holders. Were they fishing for one particular whale? And if so who were they counting on to be the underbidders?
Or were they grade shopped?

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Steve,

Can't disagree with you on that. I know people have been privately expressing surprise to me the guaranty read that way because to their knowledge SGC (at least since Dave took it over) has never tried to deny its coverage based on the 30-day period or that the card was sent in by a non-original submitter. So maybe, never being a point of contention, it slipped under the radar. But bottom line the website should reflect current policy and I told Dave that, and he agreed.

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Posted By: Glyn

We stand behind EVERY card in our holders, and the guarantee is not just for 30 days nor is it limited to the submitter of the card. The website will be ammended to reflect the current policy as soon as we possible. We thank everyone for there support of SGC and if you have any other questions please give me a call.

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Posted By: Steve

Corey

I wonder how many people (Over the years) read the guarantee had a problem card and didn't try

to reconcile figuring they did not qualify? I find it disheartening that even if it happened to one person it is one person too many.

Steve

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Posted By: LetsGoBucs

Well this is certainly a tough thread to keep track of

I'm fairly uninterested in graded cards per se, but economics and pricing does interest me.

Over time I think you won't see additional value created by the new policy PSA has....perhaps in the short term there will be those that generate additional value by getting an 8.5 and then selling. But I would tend to believe that after a couple of years that the 8.5 cards will be selling for more than an 8 used to sell for....but that 8's will sell for less than they used to sell for - and perhaps significantly less. By not lowering any grades I would have to assume that some 8's are actually 7.somethings that were missed and over time people will adjust there purchases in line with that. Not to mention that I think that if your collecting 8's today that tomorrow you'll want 8.5's.

I think that this will be especially true with lower grade for EX and EX/MT - I assume 5's and 6's? A 5.5 will be a true EX and a 5 will become EX- (which looks incredibly familar to how grading used to be done by the amateurs!!) And buyers will pay the EX price for the 5.5 but something less than today for the 5.

Just my discounted two cents worth

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Posted By: Brian

<<not one of the 500 largest holders of psa graded cards has or would submit their cards with the sole purpose of ridding the hobby of altered cards>>


Jim, can you post the list of 500 largerst holders of psa graded cards? No need to rank them, I'd just like to see the 500 names.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Brian,

People would pay me a lot of money for that information and you want it for free?

Lets Go Bucs,

I disagree on 8s going down because there are so few 8.5s being given out.
Likely that over time that PSA cards will sell somewhat in line with their SGC counterparts with PSA getting a premium due to the registry for 1948-1975(all sports) and SGC getting a premium for many issues prewar.

Also disagree that 8.5s will be the "new 8" as again there are so few 8.5s being given out making collecting a set in 8.5 near impossible.

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Posted By: Brian

I am sure some might pay for it but not me. I don't believe for a second you have an accurate list of the top 500. And I certainly don't believe you know each of those 500's collecting strategy and/or criteria by which they might resubmit.

I do agree with you that most collectors wouldn't martyr themselves to clean up the hobby. A better hobby is great, as long as it doesn't hit one's bottom line it seems.

But stating as fact that you know the top 500, you know what they have/haven't done and what they will do is a stretch.