Restoring cards

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by cammb

I agree with most of the comments about restoration when a card is trimmed or color enhanced but dont consider tape or tape stain removal a restoration. Removing something that was not originally on the card is not restoring it. The original card remains intact. Disclosure for a tape stain removal is ludicrus.

A card is printed, cut at the factory, and packed. Somebody buys the pack, and opens it. The "pack fresh" card is then taped to a book.

Sometime later, the card is removed, and there is a tape stain. The tape stain would drastically lower the grade on the card, should it be submitted. If the card is professionally cleaned, and the stain removed, it is back to it's original state.

The card has been restored.

It doesn't matter if it's a hole created from a tack, a tear, discoloration, or the removal of a stain/dirt. If a card is treated to remove damage of any kind, it is a restoration.

[cammb]

I see a real big difference in having a hole repaired, trimming or color added to removal of a tape stain. My objection is disclosure. I dont feel its necessary for a dirt or tape stain removal to be disclosed. Having a painting cleaned is a form of restoration and that is always recommended by the experts.

[almostdone]

I look at it like you don't need to label a used car as "restored" just because you vaccumed and washed it before you sold it. Same as dirt or tape removal on cards. Just my opinion.
Drew

[cammb]

+1

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by almostdone

I look at it like you don't need to label a used car as "restored" just because you vaccumed and washed it before you sold it. Same as dirt or tape removal on cards. Just my opinion.
Drew

Dirt on a car is not damage. A tape stain on a baseball card is damage. You have to take extraordinary steps to remove it.

You're not going to destroy a car if you vacuum and wash it. You could very easily destroy the car trying to remove the tape stain.

[almostdone]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Dirt on a car is not damage. A tape stain on a baseball card is damage. You have to take extraordinary steps to remove it.

You're not going to destroy a car if you vacuum and wash it. You could very easily destroy the car trying to remove the tape stain.

My point is if you take the extrodinary steps to remove it and it is not damaged in the process then how is it any different than my car sinario except the effort put into.
Adding something else, like paper fill in holes or restuctuing a corner is different, to just clean it up no matter the effort involved does not alter the original card.
Like I said, just my humble opinion.
Drew

[Bestdj777]

Originally Posted by cammb

I see a real big difference in having a hole repaired, trimming or color added to removal of a tape stain. My objection is disclosure. I dont feel its necessary for a dirt or tape stain removal to be disclosed. Having a painting cleaned is a form of restoration and that is always recommended by the experts.

I think having dirt or a tape stain removed is restoration. As I said earlier, I consider taking away or adding anything to the card to be restoration. If there was a piece of tape adhered to a card, I would consider removing that tape restoration. That said, doing that to the card does not necessarily mean that it should be disclosed.

I think there is a fine line on what you should and should not have to disclose when selling a card. I always err on the side of over disclosure. Obviously, adding color, filling holes, trimming the card, etc., should be disclosed. However, if you can clean dirt or a tape stain off the card without the potentially causing long term harm to the card, I wouldn't think that needs to be disclosed. I know people have cleaned cards using fuel that eventually caused the card to fall apart.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

A card is printed, cut at the factory, and packed. Somebody buys the pack, and opens it. The "pack fresh" card is then taped to a book.

Sometime later, the card is removed, and there is a tape stain. The tape stain would drastically lower the grade on the card, should it be submitted. If the card is professionally cleaned, and the stain removed, it is back to it's original state.

The card has been restored.

It doesn't matter if it's a hole created from a tack, a tear, discoloration, or the removal of a stain/dirt. If a card is treated to remove damage of any kind, it is a restoration.

There is no such thing as the card being professionally cleaned, no schooling
exist for such thing HOWEVER artificially cleaned or altered is the only way to
explain or describe such ocurrance.

[ALR-bishop]

Schooling and or a degree is not a necessary requirement for recognition as a professional in all cases

[pepis]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Schooling and or a degree is not a necessary requirement for recognition as a professional in all cases

You try to operate as a professional on anything cleaning, paiting, plumbi

[ALR-bishop]

Originally Posted by pepis

You try to operate as a professional on anything cleaning, paiting, plumbi

You changed your premise. You started with schooling and that is what I addressed. Now you are on to licensing. Writers, authors, sculptors, artists, astronomers ?

But I don't want to argue...so you win

[pepis]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

You changed your premise. You started with schooling and that is what I addressed. Now you are on to licensing. Writers, authors, sculptors, artists, astronomers ?

But I don't want to argue...so you win

Not really Al,
i posted what i believe is an educated opinion on the vintage card cleaning
subject, and all i ended-up doing is create a couple of enemies if anything
i lost, i'm an old man with experince and knowledge in the hobby pre and
post grading eras, i joined here for 2 reasons, one to share, talk make new
friends, but seems like most here just want to confront each other on silly
things, the other reason for a selfish agenda.

[Bestdj777]

Hey Pepis, would love the input on someone from the pre-grading era. I just started collecting vintage cards about 4 years ago. Curious where you fall on the restoring/non-restoring spectrum? Are you for or against it? And, what type of restoration do you think requires disclosure?

[pepis]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Schooling and or a degree is not a necessary requirement for recognition as a professional in all cases

You try to operate as a professional on anything! cleaning, paiting, plumbing etc without the proper city permit licence or degree of knowledge and you
could/will be fined and in many cases charged with a crime depending on who you piss-off.

[lsutigers1973]

Originally Posted by pepis

You try to operate as a professional on anything! cleaning, paiting, plumbing etc without the proper city permit licence or degree of knowledge and you
could/will be fined and in many cases charged with a crime depending on who you piss-off.

Does that include making fake "vintage" packs?

[cammb]

Anyone can obtain a license for painting, plumbing or the like. There are no tests involved. So what you are saying is that you cannot be a professional in cleaning such as rug cleaning, dry cleaning or house cleaning without a license? A license only allows you to operate in that jurisdiction.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by lsutigers1973

Does that include making fake "vintage" packs?

Bill this thread is Bestdj777s about restoring cards points of view, not fake packs, HOWEVER Bill if you open a thread about fake packs! and call me out,
i have done a lot of research on the problem and have lots of knowledge
that i would not mind sharing some of it, not all i have to leave some in case
i write a book on the subject.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by pepis

There is no such thing as the card being professionally cleaned, no schooling
exist for such thing

Actually, that's incorrect. It is a recognized profession, one where methodology is learned, and expertise is acquired through apprenticeship.

Examples of companies that do these restorations:

http://graphicconservation.com/?load=flash
http://www.restorationbyjm.com/index.php

I don't think that pointing out an inaccurate statement is being confrontational, and it's not my intention to argue. I just know that a lot of people get their information about baseball card collecting from this forum, and the information presented should be as accurate as possible.

And though I've not been a member here long, I would have to say that I haven't experienced any kind of selfish agenda. I have, however, met a lot of people that display an obvious passion and respect for the sport, and the hobby.

Jose, I hope you will stay, and allow us the opportunity to change your opinion. I for one would love to read about your experiences over the years.