Increcible prices for PWCC auctions

[calvindog]

Love PWCC auctions! Won this one the other night:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140956616869

The underbidder bid $178 more than the bidder below -- and he bid on just 5 auctions in the past 30 days, all in PWCC auctions!

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Love PWCC auctions! Won this one the other night:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140956616869

The underbidder bid $178 more than the bidder below -- and he bid on just 5 auctions in the past 30 days, all in PWCC auctions!

safety bid successful!

[ZernialFan]

I know certain things sometimes go on in the hobby. But I have to say I've had some cards in the last B & L Auction with good results. I also had some cards in the last two PWCC Auctions. So far good results. A few cards went higher then I expected, but no shill bids by me or my friends. Many of the cards were mine from when I was a kid and later graded with no doctoring.
They were not PWCC cards. I'm sure I have high % with a few sellers as they seem to have cards that I'm interested and I keep returning to buy.
I know everything is not perfect as we would like it to be, but I felt I needed
to at least stick up for PWCC, so far, in my little corner of experience with them.

Charlie

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Love PWCC auctions! Won this one the other night:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140956616869

The underbidder bid $178 more than the bidder below -- and he bid on just 5 auctions in the past 30 days, all in PWCC auctions!

I'm confused. Yes a 3 second shill is possible, but isn't this what happens when two people snipe bid in the same auction with a "gotta have it" mentality? Both bids within 6 seconds of the hammer. If the price is too high, aren't both parties equally guilty? Clearly the 3 second bidder, didn't know that a 6 second bidder was out there. Just a thought.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I'm confused. Yes a 3 second shill is possible, but isn't this what happens when two people snipe bid in the same auction with a "gotta have it" mentality? Both bids within 6 seconds of the hammer. If the price is too high, aren't both parties equally guilty? Clearly the 3 second bidder, didn't know that a 6 second bidder was out there. Just a thought.

Frank, I don't have a problem with two people putting a high snipe in -- it just seems bizarre that the underbidder only bids on PWCC auctions. And this isn't the first time such a thing has has happened in a PWCC auction. Or the second time. Or the third time.

Edited to add: this is not to say this is the auctioneer's fault -- it could be the consignor.

[Bwstew]

Did y'all see the Cobb that was tore in half and glued back together bring $415?

[scotgreb]

and he bid on just 5 auctions in the past 30 days, all in PWCC auctions! . . .

If you do any amount of research you'll find this is very common with PWCC auctions (and maybe other consignment sellers for all I know).

Some people care -- some people don't

[HRBAKER]

Some people know -- most people don't

[Gradedcardman]

I will NOT use them again as I don't bid on my consignments.

[Runscott]

I'd like to hear from the consignors who DO bid on their own consignments.

Surely we have someone on this board who's brazen enough to speak up?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Frank, I don't have a problem with two people putting a high snipe in -- it just seems bizarre that the underbidder only bids on PWCC auctions. And this isn't the first time such a thing has has happened in a PWCC auction. Or the second time. Or the third time.

Edited to add: this is not to say this is the auctioneer's fault -- it could be the consignor.

+1....

[Peter_Spaeth]

PWCC posted on CU recently in response to charges of scan manipulation.

"In particular, we are writing in response to baseless claims that we somehow are manipulating our scans. Such accusations are ridiculous and I ask that folks please remain substantive in their accusations of any company (not just PWCC). We are not altering our scans, in fact we go to great length to ensure the images we provide are as close to life-like as humanly possible. Obviously, if we were altering images we'd have plenty of upset buyers... right? Aside from the obvious moral objection associated with this level of misrepresentation, the shear workload associated with having to manipulate scans would be stagging. So even if you don't trust us personally, perhaps you can trust the practical impossibility of such an accusation."

I can't speak to intent, but PWCC's scans do not look realistic to me, they look thermonuclear.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PWCC posted on CU recently in response to charges of scan manipulation.

"In particular, we are writing in response to baseless claims that we somehow are manipulating our scans. Such accusations are ridiculous and I ask that folks please remain substantive in their accusations of any company (not just PWCC). We are not altering our scans, in fact we go to great length to ensure the images we provide are as close to life-like as humanly possible. Obviously, if we were altering images we'd have plenty of upset buyers... right? Aside from the obvious moral objection associated with this level of misrepresentation, the shear workload associated with having to manipulate scans would be stagging. So even if you don't trust us personally, perhaps you can trust the practical impossibility of such an accusation."

I can't speak to intent, but PWCC's scans do not look realistic to me, they look thermonuclear.

Kind of hard to take a guy seriously who has so many obviously shilled auctions and claims a 'moral' objection to any fraud.

[Matthew H]

How the Hell do you "go to great lengths to make images as close to life-like as possible"?????? just do the scan and leave it alone!

[Deertick]

Which is it? Manipulating scans to "to ensure the images we provide are as close to life-like as humanly possible." or "the shear workload associated with having to manipulate scans would be stagg(er)ing."?

Intentional or not, the scans are hot. They sure don't look like factory default settings. And if someones job is ensuring "the images we provide are as close to life-like as humanly possible.", they aren't manipulating them properly.

[calvindog]

Jim, you forget to mention the moral issues attendant to such manipulations.

[Runscott]

.....

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Love PWCC auctions! Won this one the other night:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140956616869

The underbidder bid $178 more than the bidder below -- and he bid on just 5 auctions in the past 30 days, all in PWCC auctions!

Do I smell class action?

[glchen]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Love PWCC auctions! Won this one the other night:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140956616869

The underbidder bid $178 more than the bidder below -- and he bid on just 5 auctions in the past 30 days, all in PWCC auctions!

This was my consignment, and I can promise that I did not shill or safety bid this card or have any of my friends do the same. Note that I also consigned this same card but in a different tint in a recent Goodwin auction, and I was also the consignor of the Wajos if this same issue that went in both this one and Goodwin.

[calvindog]

Well, at least we can narrow down the guilty party to the auction house.

[bobbyw8469]

When a PSA 6 sells for as much, if not more than a PSA 8, it is mind boggling to me as well. Just a shred of research and a little common sense will tell you what a fair market price for a particular item is. When the above scenario happens though, it definitely smells fishy to me. This hobby has so many scenarios and sub-scenarios though - it would blow your mind if you knew everything that went on. I blame the almighty dollar....

[calvindog]

You "blame the almighty dollar?" How about blaming the guy who was responsible for shill bidding?

[bobbyw8469]

For the card that I saw, the shill bid stopped at $33. There were still two other "sensible" bidders who bid it up past the PSA 8 level, totally ignoring the big coke spill stain on the back of the card.

[bobbyw8469]

You "blame the almighty dollar?" How about blaming the guy who was responsible for shill bidding?

And CalvinDog....not to be flippant or anything, but what do you think the shill bidder's motivation is? World peace??

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Well, at least we can narrow down the guilty party to the auction house.

Careful Jeffrey you will get yourself banned!!

[CW]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Well, at least we can narrow down the guilty party to the auction house.

I would think the auction house would have a lot more to lose should they win the item themselves and then have to relist it, than they would have to gain from a few extra dollars commission by bidding an item up to $400.

Also, if the auction house were doing the actual shill bidding here, and they have a habit of doing so, wouldn't they have specific accounts that don't have 100% bid activity with PWCC, so that this wouldn't seem like such "obvious" shill bidding?

I am not naive enough to think shill bidding and scan manipulations do not occur with regularity in this hobby. I just feel that now we've learned that the consignor (Gary) did not do the shill bidding on the postcard w/ Ty Cobb, this may just be a case of another collector driving the price up with a snipe.

[Seattle799]

Originally Posted by CW

Also, if the auction house were doing the actual shill bidding here, and they have a habit of doing so, wouldn't they have specific accounts that don't have 100% bid activity with PWCC, so that this wouldn't seem like such "obvious" shill bidding?

Not necessarily... if ebay isn't going to do anything about it, why bother trying to make it look less obvious

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CW

I just feel that now we've learned that the consignor (Gary) did not do the shill bidding on the postcard w/ Ty Cobb, this may just be a case of another collector driving the price up with a snipe.

Again, the issue is not with the snipe -- it is with the fact that the underbidder (and many underbidders in PWCC auctions) is only bidding in PWCC auctions.

[DeanH3]

I agree with Chuck. It would be hard to believe that AH's would be dumb enough to leave such an obvious trail if they were indeed shilling their own auctions. But then again, "dumber" things have happened.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sigh.

[t206fix]

I wonder how much VCP has to do with these prices. Now I like VCP, and use it once in awhile. But once, when I was thinking about buying a SGC W511 Babe Ruth card, I checked VCP and the average price was around $300, and the card was going for about this. So I normally don't do this, but I checked the last sale of the card, and guess what - it was being sold by the same exact seller with matching sgc# for $331, which artificially pushed the price up (according to VCP) due to this previous "auction". So I am not sure if someone returned the cards or what, but the data was still registering on VCP, hence the higher price (I don't use VCP currently so I'm not sure what it would have been if this card did not "sell" previously for $300+).

Since then, this same seller has sold 2 more of the same card/different numbers. So if sellers knew how to play the game right, you simply drive up the "sold" price and make sure it registers with VCP, and then after that, the other cards you have in the same grade are worth that much. With out this bump, let's say that the VCP card is only worth $175, then all the rest of these cards will sell around that price since the last one sold was 2006 or so -

Just my two-cent conspiracy theory -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1926-W511-1-...item589ba08f19

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1926-W511-1-...item589d73a32e

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1926-W511-Bl...item589ecddd1c


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1926-W511-1-...item53f7c76390

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

I agree with Chuck. It would be hard to believe that AH's would be dumb enough to leave such an obvious trail if they were indeed shilling their own auctions. But then again, "dumber" things have happened.

Ask Mastro and Allen about leaving an obvious trail of evidence on their fraud....

[glchen]

I contacted PWCC who provided me with the underbidder for the Exhibits Cobb auction (which I already sent to Jeff). If anyone else wants the ebay id, please let me know. Thanks.