Biggest Jerks in the HOF

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

Not in the same way he did it. The guy was motivated by jealousy and insecurity. He should never be elected to the HOF. His legacy is manufactured.

So because Bonds modified his body instead of the baseball like Gaylord Perry, Bonds is worse?

Edited to add: I am not saying cheating is ok, but to call what Bonds (and McGwire, Canseco, Sosa... and probably 50% of players through the 90s) worse is ridiculous.

[packs]

The motivation is worse and that is what makes Bonds (and players like him) different in my opinion. Same goes for Roger Clemens. They weren't motivated by trying to win (like Perry). They cheated to obtain stats that they never would have reached otherwise. Whether that be to make more money or manufacture a legacy, it doesn't matter. Gaylord Perry throwing spit balls was about giving his team a chance to win the game. I highly doubt he was out there throwing spitters thinking he had to make it to 300 wins.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

The motivation is worse and that is what makes Bonds (and players like him) different in my opinion. Same goes for Roger Clemens. They weren't motivated by trying to win (like Perry). They cheated to obtain stats that they never would have reached otherwise. Whether that be to make more money or manufacture a legacy, it doesn't matter. Gaylord Perry throwing spit balls was about giving his team a chance to win the game. I highly doubt he was out there throwing spitters thinking he had to make it to 300 wins.

...you doubt it based on what? Also how is it worse than Mickey Mantle's use of steroids?

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by packs

The motivation is worse and that is what makes Bonds (and players like him) different in my opinion. Same goes for Roger Clemens. They weren't motivated by trying to win (like Perry). They cheated to obtain stats that they never would have reached otherwise. Whether that be to make more money or manufacture a legacy, it doesn't matter. Gaylord Perry throwing spit balls was about giving his team a chance to win the game. I highly doubt he was out there throwing spitters thinking he had to make it to 300 wins.

So, cheating is ok as long as you do it for the team?

[packs]

I never said anything was ok. All I said was the motivations were different and to me one is worse than the other. I'm not excusing anyone's behavior.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by packs

I never said anything was ok. All I said was the motivations were different and to me one is worse than the other. I'm not excusing anyone's behavior.

Curious how you're able to speak for the motivations of all these people? And whether accurate or not, what makes Bonds' supposed "jeolousy as motivation" so much worse than someone juicing to maintain a spot on the roster (see Armando Rios, FP Santangelo)? Many fringe MLB players who juiced were keeping other potentially worthy players off of big league rosters... and by result keeping big league checks out of their family's bank accounts. SI did a great article a couple years back, written by a guy who was passed over year after year by guys that were inexplicably gaining 10+ MPH on their fastballs.

Other guys who were better than marginal and juiced (Ken Caminiti, Bret Boone, B Giles types) made a hell of a lot of money doing so. Assuming they weren't considering career longevity, or increasing earning potentional, or the ever evil jealousy, and instead all juiced for "team", would it be acceptable?

I'm not in a position to gauge each individuals' motivation for juicing, and get tired of fans and many in media who continually jump to conclusions. I think some things in baseball and pro sports are pretty basic though. Perform well and make a roster. Perform better, get paid and team wins more games (personal and team goals are not by rule mutually exclusive). Perform even better, perhaps be considered for Hall of Fame. Lots of room motivations/personal agenda, and players of all eras have looked for an edge to perform better.

[packs]

I didn't excuse anyone and hold all accountable. I just personally think players like Bonds and Clemens (and players like them, not just them) cheated in a different way than someone who is spitting on a baseball. That's all I'm saying. Whatever you're adding to my argument is not coming from me.

As for assuming motivations. I don't claim to be inside of their heads. But I understand the world.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by packs

But I understand the world.

Understand the World as Mark Fenara-Wada wrote and Pedro Gomez reported it?

It's clear you separate these guys, particularly Bonds as being motivated by jealousy and insecurity (credit Mark FW for shaping opinions there) rather than simply cheating to win.. and for some reason that's far worse and excludes him from Hall consideration, while other cheaters get a pass.

My comment and understanding of the world is that people generally want to do well... particluarly competitive athletes. Not assuming I know their minds, but do think it is naive to make the opposite assumption that Gaylord Perry is only cheating to better his team and his not taking his own perfomance on the mound into consideration.

I guess if you're not 700+ HR or 7 Cy Young Award good, you must only be cheating to win. Keeping a job or increasing your earnings doesn't factor at all, right?

As a Giants fan who probably saw 50+ Bonds HRs in person and loved every one, I don't particularly like that he holds the HR record. However, I also don't like seeing how he and Clemens given such a higher level of scrutiny than the rest. They seem to take the brunt for the whole era, which is nuts because IMO "the era" is far from over and many many players are still probably juicing.