Cheatriots At It Again....

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

This just gets crazier. Belichick Thursday: "I have no explanation for how these footballs could have been deflated". Today: "We have conducted an internal investigation and I have a scientific explanation". Really, why didn't you share that information Thursday, when you answered every question with "I've told you everything I know"? Why even have a presser Thursday if an investigation was about to be completed and you would then have your answer? Again, these are not pressers already scheduled to occur where the questioning turns to this subject--these are pressers that the Pats themselves called and orchestrated, giving carefully-crafted statements and essentially ducking follow-up questions. They look like buffoons.

Reinforces your earlier point, the response is worse than the crime.. And their response has been awkward to say the least. Saw bits of his presser today, I think saying they didn't have hands on balls from the time they were prepped/measured until game time. Like Scott said though, all you need is the needle to let air out.

Still, not at all upset with Pats if they did this, and deflate-gate is still stupid.

[pgellis]

So it's OK with you that they broke the rules and cheated?

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by pgellis

So it's OK with you that they broke the rules and cheated?

Just pulling an example off the top of my head.. But is it ok with you that base coaches rarely stand in their allotted box? Step outside that box, you can theoretically try to get a better angle to steal signs, or catcher location, or get closer to talk to your batter, or read lips, or whatever. As is though, everybody does it, no one cares, and no one enforces it, so the people doing it probably don't feel like they're cheating. I think the similar applies here, and am surprised by how fired up people are getting.

If the league had cared at all about this rule in its history, they'd simply supply all game balls, that meet their required specs... They don't (nor does any level of football), and so teams/QBs/staff have been more or less allowed to this stuff forever, probably without really considering it's being "cheating" (should the base coach have a guilty conscience?). Going forward, I'm guessing this changes though, which I also think is lame because I'm 100% fine with QBs being given some leeway on the feel of the footballs they use. But I think with all the attention, this will become something that becomes more rigidly enforced. All other teams, be happy your team wasn't the one this blew up on.. Packer fans, be happy Rodgers didn't get caught with a 14 psi ball, simply because no one had ever cared to check... And Peyton Manning fans, be ready to see your QB launch even more ducky looking ducks.

[itjclarke]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of cheating. I think spygate was really bad, as was what the Saints did, but I also don't think that secretly filming practices or listening in on coordinators/visiting locker rooms was a generally accepted practice. Just because it's in a book doesn't mean that some rules violations are far less serious than others.

Love Pete Carroll- "it's serious for them" comment. My gut tells me inside he's probably thinking, who cares but better them than us.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Just pulling an example off the top of my head.. But is it ok with you that base coaches rarely stand in their allotted box? Step outside that box, you can theoretically try to get a better angle to steal signs, or catcher location, or get closer to talk to your batter, or read lips, or whatever. As is though, everybody does it, no one cares, and no one enforces it, so the people doing it probably don't feel like they're cheating. I think the similar applies here, and am surprised by how fired up people are getting.

Base coaches aren't hiding - they are right there in the open and could be told to get back in their box. If you are saying that everyone knows that quarterbacks are having air let out of their balls, then I would agree with you, but the quarterbacks we have heard from so far are not saying that at all.

The best example I can think of is corked bats or spitballs. Tim Hudson still throws spitballs and I'm sure the league knows it and has decided to ignore it. But it's cheating. <== blatant product advertising as I own a documented Hudson spitball

[pgellis]

Ian, here's the big difference here.....do QBs alter game balls before the game? Yes. But once the game officials check them prior to kickoff, 99% of QBs and/or teams do not then go back to those balls and make them illegal again. That is what is being accused here.
Does Aaron Rodgers prefer over-inflated footballs? Supposedly, but he said he's disappointed when the officials take air out of them to make them legal. He doesn't then go back and mess with them again.

And this has not been going on forever. Before 2007, I believe, the home team supplied all the balls. Do you know who pleaded with the Competition Committee to change the rule to allow each team to supply their own footballs? You got it, Tom Brady.

Must have been cheating all along.

[steve B]

Interesting discussion.

Here's where I'm at on it.

I'd still like to know if the process used to check pre-game was simply handling the balls as the former ballboy from another team said. Or if decently accurate equipment was used.

Today I read an article about a science guys take on it. And I think he may have the answer. The one I posted earlier about the pressure reducing from temperature was based on going from around 70 degrees to around 50. (Gametime temp was low 50's and settled into the upper 40's by the end of the game NOT the drastic change claimed. ) The scientist basically said the same thing. Except that he added that the rules didn't mention a temperature, making the rule vague. He went on to say that if the balls were inflated in for instance the sauna the temperature difference between then and the field was easily large enough to make the difference. And that because the rules don't state a temperature it would probably be legal. Not particularly honest, but within the rules.

Do I think the team had someone deflate the balls in front of both teams, the press, officials, and anyone else in the stadium? Not really. Do I think the Pats might have inflated them in a hot environment knowing they'd be under by gametime? Yeah, that I can see happening.

And that IS a bit shady. But also within the current rules as they're written.

I think Scott was pretty accurate in his earlier reply to me. We'll have to wait for the NFL to figure out what went on. I think the team will be found to have done something and will probably be heavily fined even if what was done violates the spirit of the rule but didn't actually violate it as written.

I also think the rules will be changed in the offseason. Maybe each team will provide half the balls scuffed and the refs will do the inflating and someone will exercise tighter control over them. Maybe the league will provide the balls so everyone will be using the same ball. And specifying a temperature range should be part of the rule.
I forget if I mentioned it here or in the other thread, but at the very least they'll probably put tamper evident seals over the valve.

Or we can all join PG and get out the torches and pitchforks before we really know what happened. Unless somehow he does actually know what happened. With such omniscience I'd head to Vegas instead of hanging out here. A few hours and I'd have a lot more card money

Steve B

[rats60]

Originally Posted by steve B

Interesting discussion.

Here's where I'm at on it.

I'd still like to know if the process used to check pre-game was simply handling the balls as the former ballboy from another team said. Or if decently accurate equipment was used.

Today I read an article about a science guys take on it. And I think he may have the answer. The one I posted earlier about the pressure reducing from temperature was based on going from around 70 degrees to around 50. (Gametime temp was low 50's and settled into the upper 40's by the end of the game NOT the drastic change claimed. ) The scientist basically said the same thing. Except that he added that the rules didn't mention a temperature, making the rule vague. He went on to say that if the balls were inflated in for instance the sauna the temperature difference between then and the field was easily large enough to make the difference. And that because the rules don't state a temperature it would probably be legal. Not particularly honest, but within the rules.

Do I think the team had someone deflate the balls in front of both teams, the press, officials, and anyone else in the stadium? Not really. Do I think the Pats might have inflated them in a hot environment knowing they'd be under by gametime? Yeah, that I can see happening.

And that IS a bit shady. But also within the current rules as they're written.

I think Scott was pretty accurate in his earlier reply to me. We'll have to wait for the NFL to figure out what went on. I think the team will be found to have done something and will probably be heavily fined even if what was done violates the spirit of the rule but didn't actually violate it as written.

I also think the rules will be changed in the offseason. Maybe each team will provide half the balls scuffed and the refs will do the inflating and someone will exercise tighter control over them. Maybe the league will provide the balls so everyone will be using the same ball. And specifying a temperature range should be part of the rule.
I forget if I mentioned it here or in the other thread, but at the very least they'll probably put tamper evident seals over the valve.

Or we can all join PG and get out the torches and pitchforks before we really know what happened. Unless somehow he does actually know what happened. With such omniscience I'd head to Vegas instead of hanging out here. A few hours and I'd have a lot more card money

Steve B

I think we'd all like whatever you are smoking.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by steve B

Today I read an article about a science guys take on it. And I think he may have the answer. The one I posted earlier about the pressure reducing from temperature was based on going from around 70 degrees to around 50. (Gametime temp was low 50's and settled into the upper 40's by the end of the game NOT the drastic change claimed. ) The scientist basically said the same thing. Except that he added that the rules didn't mention a temperature, making the rule vague. He went on to say that if the balls were inflated in for instance the sauna the temperature difference between then and the field was easily large enough to make the difference. And that because the rules don't state a temperature it would probably be legal. Not particularly honest, but within the rules.

Inflated in a sauna?

Ok, I'll bite. Let's say they were inflated in a sauna. Why wouldn't the ball boy (or whoever inflated them) just come out and say so? As you state, it would probably be within the rules, so why wouldn't they just fess up instead of having all this doubt and suspicion cast on Tom Brady?

Your Patriots are cheaters. Pull your head out of the sand and just admit it. They will be fined and lose a first round draft pick at a minimum, but I hope it's a lot more harsh than that.

[itjclarke]

Phil- I expect most/all QBs would object to anything the league does or did to limit their ability to mess around with balls, and though Tom Brady may have lead this previous charge, I doubt he's an exception. I do feel like the league, being super reactive these days, is gauging how to act based on the media response. If this doesn't blow over, during the off season I expect them to change the way game balls are handled, and in turn expect QBs to object (however objecting in a way that won't make it look like they over doctor their game balls).

I think it's also unfair to make the conclusions about what Brady "did" and what Rodgers "does not do". I earlier said I think Brady probably did something, but did so knowing no one really cares... I'm actually now starting to consider things in line with what Steve B said. The Ball is inflated at 70+ degrees, then spends 2 hours outside at 40, it will lose some pressure. Brady likes the ball at 12.5, while Luck apparently likes it at 13.5.. so if Brady's ball deflates at all, he's technically in violation of the rule, while Luck has a 1 psi cushion. I hear the claims the Pats balls were 2 psi low were also not confirmed, but media types are reporting it as fact (love modern journalistic integrity). I also just heard there are ways to treat a ball prior to the game that will create higher pressures for a short period (while being measured), but will then drop later. If truly possible, would doing this be a rules violation, or is it just getting as close to the edge as possible? Doubt there's anything in the rules that cover this.. and it seems just about everything in the NFL will take things as close to the edge as possible- see Seahawks DB play, or any D lineman line up as close to offside as possible.

Scott- I take what a lot of people (QBs, coaches, talking heads) may or may not be saying with a grain of salt. Seeing how this has blown up, no one wants to be seen on the bad side of it... and a lot of media types may just be instigating for self serving purposes. If this was truly big deal to the league/refs/rules (before the press blew this story up), why did the refs simply fill the balls back up and play the 2nd half??? Apparently, they didn't contact anyone, league, coaches, about the under inflated balls, they just filled them back up, why? Because no one cared about this rule... but media types got hold of it and made it a big deal. I think most anyone who played the pro game, off record and without being influenced by this current story, would not think this was a really big deal.

Some media outlet, or the league, or the Pats need to take some footballs inflated to 12.5 psi, put them in a fridge for 2 hours+, then measure drop in pressure. I would love if there was a noticeable drop, or if there is any other simple/logical explanation and then maybe everyone would just shut up!!! Regardless, of ball psi, I'd be nearly certain to say Peyton Manning and Ben Roethlisberger wearing sticky gloves on their throwing hands has a far greater effect on grip than air pressure (as would major college teams using totally different balls).

I'll never be convinced this is a real big deal... but the media has definitely made it a perceived big deal.

ADDING: just read a little Peter King snippet saying a 1-2 psi difference was just about imperceptible, and even at 10 psi the football still felt hard (makes me wonder what psi on those semi soft game balls we used in HS was??) Admittedly I'm annoyed at myself for getting sucked in, and don't like Peter King, but glad he wrote this... and think if tested, the loudest of media blowhards would probably fail miserably trying to identify the under inflated balls in a batch of good ones.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Scott- I take what a lot of people (QBs, coaches, talking heads) may or may not be saying with a grain of salt. Seeing how this has blown up, no one wants to be seen on the bad side of it... and a lot of media types may just be instigating for self serving purposes. If this was truly big deal to the league/refs/rules (before the press blew this story up), why did the refs simply fill the balls back up and play the 2nd half??? Apparently, they didn't contact anyone, league, coaches, about the under inflated balls, they just filled them back up, why? Because no one cared about this rule...

I agree with all of this except the QBs' reaction. Not even one ex-QB tried using 'Steve B' logic. The talk shows LOVE having opposing views from their talking heads, yet when given the opportunity, the quarterbacks didn't once take Brady's side.

Also, I was believing Brady during his press conference when he kept saying that he couldn't tell the difference during the game - that he never gave it a second thought. He should also have said that yes, he asks for 12.5, but no, he doubts he could really tell the difference, that it should be intuitive to anyone that lower pressure balls 'should' be easier to throw, so he goes for the bottom. Why the heck didn't he just say something like that?

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I'll never be convinced this is a real big deal... but the media has definitely made it a perceived big deal.

Bingo!

I don't love or hate either team, but this ball deflating incident is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. I get that it's breaking the rules...so fine them, take a draft pick away and move on...it's that easy. I don't care if Belichick or Brady had anything to do with it or not, the Pats broke the rules one way or another, so lay the hammer down and get it over with.

Even if it's a form or cheating, it's not very relevant and the guys here that are chomping at the bit to have the Patriot's heads are sad. It would be different if the haters plainly stated their case and took a side, but it just seems weak to call them names and such.