Bill Mastro's upcoming sentencing

Leon · #1 06-30-2015, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

And there you have it.

That is one of the most damning things I have seen so far. And it is my understanding, according to the plea agreement, that Doug admitted guilt. I am just shaking my head.....

HRBAKER · #2 06-30-2015, 05:58 PM

I've always said the church could learn a lot from this hobby. I've never seen a larger collection of more forgiving people.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 06-30-2015, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

I've always said the church could learn a lot from this hobby. I've never seen a larger collection of more forgiving people.

I think more willfully blind than forgiving. A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest, as the song goes.

calvindog · #4 06-30-2015, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think more willfully blind than forgiving. A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest, as the song goes.

I think he was being sarcastic.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 06-30-2015, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think he was being sarcastic.

Perhaps but it's true. In the name of stuff people forgive almost anything.

calvindog · #6 06-30-2015, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Perhaps but it's true. In the name of stuff people forgive almost anything.

Mastro and Allen are no longer selling cards. There is no reason to keep your mouth shut in exchange for buying their cards.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 06-30-2015, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

That is one of the most damning things I have seen so far. And it is my understanding, according to the plea agreement, that Doug admitted guilt. I am just shaking my head.....

Gives you a lot of confidence in graded cards, doesn't it, when they slab a trimmed Wagner and a rebacked Plank, cards obviously deserving of a far more exacting review than most.

Eric72 · #8 06-30-2015, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Gives you a lot of confidence in graded cards, doesn't it, when they slab a trimmed Wagner and a rebacked Plank, cards obviously deserving of an exacting review.

+1

calvindog · #9 06-30-2015, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

That is one of the most damning things I have seen so far. And it is my understanding, according to the plea agreement, that Doug admitted guilt. I am just shaking my head.....

Mastro's actions were just as bad if not significantly worse. You should cut the crap and write a letter to the judge explaining how badly they have both damaged the hobby. You're the owner of this board and a leading voice in the hobby. "Leading" is what leaders do. Mastro sent you a gift/bribe for a reason -- because he wanted your help with a positive letter to the court. Can you actually say with a straight face that this man deserves a letter praising him to the judge? Can you actually say with a straight face that the judge doesn't deserve to hear the truth about Mastro and the true extent of his fraud on our hobby?

Lastly, he could have agreed to restitution to his victims -- all of the people who were defrauded in his auctions. And he didn't.

Peter_Spaeth · #10 06-30-2015, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Mastro's actions were just as bad if not significantly worse. You should cut the crap and write a letter to the judge explaining how badly they have both damaged the hobby. You're the owner of this board and a leading voice in the hobby. "Leading" is what leaders do. Mastro sent you a gift/bribe for a reason -- because he wanted your help with a positive letter to the court. Can you actually say with a straight face that this man deserves a letter praising him to the judge? Can you actually say with a straight face that the judge doesn't deserve to hear the truth about Mastro and the true extent of his fraud on our hobby?

Lastly, he could have agreed to restitution to his victims -- all of the people who were defrauded in his auctions. And he didn't.

Yes, Mastro altered an even more expensive card, but I doubt that's the point you are trying to make.

Jobu · #11 06-30-2015, 06:06 PM

At the risk of appearing to be a bit green, do people here think TPGs simply missed this alteration (and the others) because it was so good or is there likely to have been someone at the TPG who was on the take?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

That is one of the most damning things I have seen so far. And it is my understanding, according to the plea agreement, that Doug admitted guilt. I am just shaking my head.....

Peter_Spaeth · #12 06-30-2015, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobu

At the risk of appearing to be a bit green, do people here think TPGs simply missed this alteration (and the others) because it was so good or is there likely to have been someone at the TPG who was on the take?

I have no idea in this case, but there are people out there who are very skilled in this sort of work, and remember PSA is not the FBI.

rdwyer · #13 06-30-2015, 06:40 PM

Lethal injection and/or restitution!

jcmtiger · #14 07-12-2015, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdwyer

Lethal injection and/or restitution!

Yes hang anyone who commits a crime. I had a neighbor who killed his wife by slamming her ahead against a pole in the basement and stored her body in a freezer for 3 years. . He spent 7 years in jail. Is that enough, I don't think so, so I don't think Mastro needs a harsher sentence just because we collect cards. Think about it.

Joe

wonkaticket · #15 07-13-2015, 04:50 AM

Hmmm so because he didn't kill and store a woman in a freezer, collectors/victims shouldn't expect more in terms of a sentence for his crimes.

Here's what I'll "think about" what possible medications you must have forgot to take to type the above.

Peter_Spaeth · #16 07-13-2015, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Hmmm so because he didn't kill and store a woman in a freezer, collectors/victims shouldn't expect more in terms of a sentence for his crimes.

Here's what I'll "think about" what possible medications you must have forgot to take to type the above.

.

calvindog · #17 07-13-2015, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

Yes hang anyone who commits a crime. I had a neighbor who killed his wife by slamming her ahead against a pole in the basement and stored her body in a freezer for 3 years. . He spent 7 years in jail. Is that enough, I don't think so, so I don't think Mastro needs a harsher sentence just because we collect cards. Think about it.

Joe

Some thoughts:

1) there's a happy medium in between a life sentence and a few months in prison with no restitution paid to his victims and his claim, on the very day he pleaded guilty, that his victims were unfairly critical of him.

2) Probably time to move.

3) Um, you didn't receive a gift from Bill, did you?

Leon · #18 07-13-2015, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Some thoughts:

1) there's a happy medium in between a life sentence and a few months in prison with no restitution paid to his victims and his claim, on the very day he pleaded guilty, that his victims were unfairly critical of him.

2) Probably time to move.

3) Um, you didn't receive a gift from Bill, did you?

It's good you aren't under oath or I might have believed everything you have said in this thread.

Exhibitman · #19 06-30-2015, 06:41 PM

Anyone want to guess at the odds of Allen and/or Theotikis showing up in Chicago next month?

Kenny Cole · #20 06-30-2015, 07:46 PM

With respect to Peter's suggestion that its difficult to write a letter if you don't know that you've been defrauded (in part because Mastro destroyed bidding records), isn't concealment sort of the quintessential essence of fraud? Concealment, non-disclosure, false representation, deceit. Failure to disclose material facts when you have a duty to speak is fraud. Half-truths can be fraud, because there is a duty to tell the actual truth, not part of it. I don't know that I would suggest he was a fiduciary, but he damn sure told people that they could submit max bids and that those bids would be held in confidence and not utilized unless/until another bidder (who I think most people would have fairly inferred was not the auction house) topped the existing bid. That apparently didn't happen on a relatively frequent basis.

Also, at least where I'm from, destruction of relevant evidence in and of itself creates an inference that the evidence which was destroyed would have been adverse to the party who destroyed it. The fact that occurred is fairly damning IMO, and is indicative of fraud and shilling on a far more widespread basis than indicated in the plea agreement IMO.

Even apart from the damage to the hobby and the fact that people are most likely paying inflated prices due to the shilling of cards someone else was unfortunate enough to win, I think there is plenty of reason for everyone who bid in Mastro's auctions to assert that they were likely defrauded. I guess I also need to write a letter....

Peter_Spaeth · #21 06-30-2015, 08:00 PM

Kenny that's fine, by all means write the letter, I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't appropriate, just that I personally was not enthused for the reasons stated. But relatedly, I would be interested in your view on this, which I haven't fully thought through myself. Suppose all the evidence you had for trial is what you have now from the public record, namely Mastro's admissions. You don't get bidding records, discovery, etc. Do you think as a private plaintiff you can win on a claim that YOU were defrauded? Is there enough to draw that inference under a clear and convincing evidence standard, or even under a preponderance standard? And if you think yes, based on destruction of evidence or whatever rationale, what are your damages, how would you calculate them?

ullmandds · #22 06-30-2015, 08:20 PM

I wrote my letter...took maybe 20 minutes in front of the tv.

Anyone who has ever bid on a baseball card in an auction has a duty to write a letter...be it ebay, Goodwin, REA, Legendary...any one. Unless you like giving money to crooks that is.

We all have a beef in this fight. Don't be lazy!

Kenny Cole · #23 06-30-2015, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kenny that's fine, by all means write the letter, I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't appropriate, just that I personally was not enthused for the reasons stated. But relatedly, I would be interested in your view on this, which I haven't fully thought through myself. Suppose all the evidence you had for trial is what you have now from the public record, namely Mastro's admissions. You don't get bidding records, discovery, etc. Do you think as a private plaintiff you can win on a claim that YOU were defrauded? Is there enough to draw that inference under a clear and convincing evidence standard, or even under a preponderance standard? And if you think yes, based on destruction of evidence or whatever rationale, what are your damages, how would you calculate them?

I think it would largely depend on the judge and what he/she would let in. I'm not saying it would be an ideal case by any means, but I'm not sure it would be a loser either. You can prove fraud by circumstantial evidence and I don't necessarily have a problem doing that. I don't know why you think I wouldn't get discovery though. That seems kind of unrealistic. It would be fun to take a deposition where Mastro can't plead the 5th because he's already pled out and even if he does, you get to draw an adverse inference and talk to the jury about that in a civil case. Adverse inference from record destruction, adverse inference if he tries to plead the 5th, admissions that he shilled and cheated people -- I think the right jury might get irritated with that sort of stuff. We assert fraud in many of our cases, and I don't really think most juries distinguish, or even care, about the difference between clear and convincing and preponderance of the evidence. At least that's my experience.

If the conduct is bad, I really don't worry that much about damages. It's kind of like pleading punis. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of that because it causes you extra work and if the jury is mad enough to award them, I have always believed that they will find a place to stick them even if you don't ask for them. I'd throw out the number paid for whatever items the client bought, maybe show what they had sold for before, and fight about whether I had to quantify the non-economic stuff. I have only lost that once, and even then the judge said the number wouldn't come in when we tried the case. It settled, so I don't know if the judge would have stuck to his guns.

keithsky · #24 06-30-2015, 06:10 PM

How the heck did that T206 Plank even pass the authenticating company with an altered back? Was that PSA? Shouldn't they be held responsible in some way? Apparently they didn't do there job or even know what there doing. Or were they in bed together? Boy alot of questions need to be answered.

bnorth · #25 07-01-2015, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keithsky

How the heck did that T206 Plank even pass the authenticating company with an altered back? Was that PSA? Shouldn't they be held responsible in some way? Apparently they didn't do there job or even know what there doing. Or were they in bed together? Boy alot of questions need to be answered.

You would be suprised how easy it is for even a half assed card doctor to get stuff by ANY of the grading companies. THey are not highly paid experts. They are there to make the grading company $ by grading cards as fast and accurately as posible.

barrysloate · #26 07-01-2015, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

You would be suprised how easy it is for even a half assed card doctor to get stuff by ANY of the grading companies. THey are not highly paid experts. They are there to make the grading company $ by grading cards as fast and accurately as posible.

And yet collectors are still willing to pay astronomical amounts of money for high grade cards based solely on the assessment of the TPG. Why is that?

bnorth · #27 07-01-2015, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

And yet collectors are still willing to pay astronomical amounts of money for high grade cards based solely on the assessment of the TPG. Why is that?

The grading companies give the buyer a false sence of security that their card in not altered/counterfiet. That is if the slab is even real and not counterfiet. JMHO

Peter_Spaeth · #28 07-01-2015, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

The grading companies give the buyer a false sence of security that their card in not altered/counterfiet. That is if the slab is even real and not counterfiet. JMHO

Some are na�ve, others willfully blind.

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