Question: More Famous Hack Wilson or Nellie Fox? Help!

[Mac927]

I'm currently in a heated debate with a friend about which player is more famous? Both died way too young. Both were elected to the HOF by veterans committee. Both played in Chicago. So please help end this debate!

Thank you for your opinions!

[chaddurbin]

Hack wilson national league single season rbi record holder.

[clydepepper]

Hack Wilson played for the Cubs, while Fox only played for the White Sox....nuf said

[familytoad]

Hack has a major record , one of the big three before sabermetrics entered every argument.

Nellie , well he has both his supporters and detractors for his HOF entrance.
I don't mind that he's in, but I figured it was that the ChiSox could use a few more HOFers.

Maybe your friend hasn't seen any of the real photo cards of Hack. He was built like a fire hydrant and almost as handsome A real Hall of Famer!

[Mac927]

It seems that I am not alone in thinking that Hack Wilson is more famous than Nellie!!

[brian1961]

I'm no help because I believe that in their time, Hack and Nellie were both very famous. However, Nellie's career as a hustling fine fielding, bunt and blunk hitting second baseman took place over quite a few years. He got an immense amount of respect for that. Also, I think fans really admired him nationwide because of his small size and the fact he hustled and played with all his heart every game. He had quite a following among Sox fans. For 12 years, Nellie led at least the AL in fewest strikeouts. In his only World Series, he hit .375 against LA, and deservedly won the 1959 AL MVP award. When Ted Williams became manager of the Washington Senators, he selected Nellie Fox to be one of his coaches. His death at only 47 stunned all Chicago.

Hack kept getting better and better. Manager Joe McCarthy knew how to handle Hack, how to bring out the most and the best of the man. Hack Wilson thrived under McCarthy. The beginning of the end came when McCarthy left the Cubs towards the end of Hack's career year of 1930. Wrigley selected Rogers Hornsby, understandably, to be the new manager. I cannot say enough bad things about Hornsby. As a player, he was greatness; as a manager, he was a player destroyer. Hornsby resented all the love and attention lavished on Wilson by the fans. The self-absorbed, thoroughly blunt, tactless, and profane Rogers knew how to get under Hack Wilson's skin, and did so mercilessly in 1931. Hack had already developed a drinking problem; Rogers exacerbated this propensity in Hack to the full, and if ever a manager could drive someone like Hack to drink, Hornsby did so.

Let me back up a bit to relay a poignant story on Hack.

I still cringe remembering this story I read in the biography done of Hack Wilson, put out by McFarland Publishing. The Cubs were on the train back from Philly after getting beaten in the '29 Series. The low point of the series was game 4, when the Cubs blew an 8-0 lead in the 7th inning, with Hack Wilson losing a fly ball due to the glare of the sun, enabling the A's to score a bunch of runs. Hack took it horribly. So, it's the middle of the night, and the broken Cubs are trying to sleep on the train. There's some noise that wakes a few of the players. One of the guys pulls a chord to turn on a light. The fellas all see the commotion. It's Hack Wilson on the floor of the train car, sitting on his knees, crying his eyes out, pounding the floor, and talking to himself that he shouldda caught that ball in the sun. Maybe they would've won the game then, and the Series.

The next year, 1930, the Cubs fans threw lemons at Hack Wilson when he played the outfield at Wrigley, to show their displeasure at what they felt was poor play during that 4th Series game. They kept throwing those lemons too, 'til about half the season was over, when it was apparent Hack was having a great year. If you were to look it up, Wilson was so consistent, hitting 4 home runs in April (when the season began much later), 10 in May, 8 in June, 11 in July, 13 in August, and 10 in September. Moreover, this squat fireplug swatsmith hit at least seven homers against each of the other seven clubs, and yet no more than nine against any of the other teams. Furthermore, 33 of his home runs were slugged with men on base. The total number of RBIs he achieved just off his home runs was a staggering 98! His major league record of RBIs in a single season still stands---191 in 1930. Until the steroid guys "broke" the single season records, Hack Wilson's 56 in 1930 was still the National League best.

Roger Maris, after his great 1961 season, was tormented by the many vicious Ruth torch bearers and several sportswriters who enjoyed skewering the Rajah constantly, and Roger was never the same. Maris said it wasn't 1961 that so soured him being a Yankee; it was 1962. Alas, for Wilson, Manager Hornsby was absolute poison to Hack. Wilson completely fell apart in 1931, disturbingly so, and there was no Joe McCarthy to lift him up and straighten him out mentally. After just that one nightmarish season under Hornsby's cat o' nine tails tongue-lashing, in December 1931, he was traded to the Cardinals. I'll just bet big mouth Hornsby influenced Wrigley to get rid of Wilson. The next month, January 1932, the Cards traded Hack to the Brooklyn Dodgers. I've always wondered why Joe McCarthy didn't try to convince Yankee brass to take a chance on Hack. Could you imagine what might have happened if Hack Wilson had gotten built up again in his mind and feelings by McCarthy with the Yanks? It didn't happen, as we all know, and poor Hack died penniless at about the same age as Nellie Fox, due to the effects of alcoholism.

In the end, I feel they're both highly thought of by knowledgeable Chicago baseball fans, but if I had to pick one, I would have to go with Nellie Fox. He was awful good for a long time, and so hard to strike out. Didja ever see a Nelson Fox model bat? Thick as a brick all the way through, and I suppose it helped him to get good wood on the ball with his small muscles. ---Brian Powell

[djson1]

For offense, I would definitely go with Hack (although Nellie was great at making contact and didn't strike out often).
For defense, I would go with Nellie's glove.

[RTK]

"More famous", I'd go with Fox. He played during the beginning of the TV era. If you judge by the old baseball adage for good teams being "strong up the middle", Fox fills the definition well. He was a key player on some very good Sox teams in the 50's and early 60's that could never get past the very good Yankee teams of the era. Had Fox played on the Yankees during that time there'd be a monument to him in center field at Yankee stadium. Wilson was a fine baseball player but had his demons.

[frankbmd]

Nellie Fox outchewed Hack Wilson. His left cheek is a childhood memory of mine. It is surprising to me that his cause of death is reported as lymphatic or skin cancer, possibly not related to the ubiquitous wad in his cheek. However, the information regarding his cause of death is not clear. Melanoma would be the most likely skin cancer to cause widespread lymphatic involvement referred to in several sources, but I cannot find a reference to melanoma related to Fox anywhere. The "skin" cancer references may be a cover up for a primary tumor in the lining of his cheek, buccal mucosa, which would clearly be linked to the tobacco. Oral cancer can spread to lymph nodes in the neck and beyond and once widespread can be fatal. Therefore I strongly suspect that his cause of death was related to the chewing tobacco. I do not agree with Nellie's endorsement of the product below.

Interestingly Nellie passed away weeks before his 48th birthday. Hack Wilson on the other hand died at the age of 48 after his 48th birthday of pneumonia and a cerebral hemorrhage. He had a drinking problem in his playing days and was not the picture of health after his playing days and died penniless.

So from a medical and lifestyle point of view, I guess Hack wins by a few months, even if he did strike out more.

[PolarBear]

Who is Nellie Fox? Wasn't she in those robot movies?

[pokerplyr80]

Even as a kid who didn't know much about history I had heard of Hack Wilson because of the RBI record. He would get my vote.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Mac927

It seems that I am not alone in thinking that Hack Wilson is more famous than Nellie!!

Agreed....While they were both outstanding players, Hack's RBI record is hard to ignore...

[jason.1969]

It's an interesting argument. I tend to think of Nellie Fox as more famous, but Hack Wilson--because of his record--as more immortal. Of course, neither term is well defined enough to support a single right answer.

[Topps206]

So long as no one drives in 192, people shall forever know the name Hack Wilson.

[the 'stache]

I've got to go with Nellie, but it is incredibly close. Yes, Hack Wilson has the RBI record, but while 191 RBIs is a huge number, people routinely drove in 160 + back then. I mean, in 1930, six guys drove in over 150: Wilson's 191, Gehrig had 173, Chuck Klein 170, Al Simmons 165, Jimmie Foxx 156, and Babe Ruth 153. Gehrig drove in 185 in 1931.

Nellie certainly didn't have Hack's power, but he blows him away with the glove. Wilson's best season, defensively, he was a replacement level player with a 0.0 dWAR. Nellie had seasons with a dWAR of 2.6, 2.2, 2.1, 1.9, 1.8, 1.6, 1.4, 1.3 and 1.3. And has there ever been a tougher guy to strike out? Fox never struck out 20 times in a season, even though he routinely had over 700 plate appearances. 14 seasons into his career, he was a .297 lifetime hitter.

If I'm building a baseball team, Nellie Fox is the kind of player I'd love to have. A second baseman with a spectacular glove that hits .300 and never strikes out. If he'd been a Yankee, songs would have been written about the guy. Don't get me wrong, Gil McDougal was a fine second baseman, but Nellie Fox would have scored 150 runs every year in his prime with Mick, Yogi and Bauer hitting behind him.

Plus, Nellie's '53 Bowman is one of my favorite cards of the decade.

[Topps206]

The better player doesn't equate with who is more famous.