OT: Manning announces his retirement

rats60 · #1 03-08-2016, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksabet

I realize that, but its a bit of revisionist history.

I argue the same thing with Babe Ruth. Does anyone honestly believe he was as good an athlete and ball player as Ken Griffey Jr.? But he's always numero uno on most lists.

Do you not think that the great players of the 50s and 60s, Clemente, Mays, Aaron, Mantle, Rose, etc. would be superstars today?

You have Brady #1, but his stats are no better than Manning's, both regular season (96.4 to 96.5) and postseason (88.0 to 87.4) and that is before factoring Spygate and Deflategate.

Mikehealer · #2 03-08-2016, 01:07 PM

Best QB ever, Aaron Rodgers and it's really not even close.

And how can you have a list of best passers and not have Warren Moon somewhere. I can't think of anyone that threw a better pass.

ksabet · #3 03-08-2016, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Do you not think that the great players of the 50s and 60s, Clemente, Mays, Aaron, Mantle, Rose, etc. would be superstars today?

You have Brady #1, but his stats are no better than Manning's, both regular season (96.4 to 96.5) and postseason (88.0 to 87.4) and that is before factoring Spygate and Deflategate.

I don't know in regards to baseball. Do I think those guys would be better than the average players...absolutely. Do I think that they could outplay the megastars of today, I would guess no, but I defer to the more knowledgeable.

Removing one year from his career, Brady had so much less to work with than any other QB in history and if not for two very fluky plays he'd have 6 rings right now. I believe Unitas would be a solid backup today. Theres no way he could stand up to how big, fast and strong defenses have become.

BTW I admit this is a silly argument because I am the first to argue that you can really only compare athletes to their contemporaries, very difficult to cross compare generations.

drcy · #4 03-08-2016, 01:17 PM

Not to suggest that there aren't some all-time great quarterbacks today, but the recent passing and receiving records are a product of the rules.

Any list that doesn't include Johnny Unitas, says the list maker goes by today's open-the-floodgate stats. A generation ago, when passing for 300 yards in a game was a huge day and 3000 in a season got you to the Pro Bowl, Johnny Unitas was universally ranked as the all time best. He was the Jim Brown no-brainer as best quarterback. Perhaps a quarterback, two or three have deservedly passed him since then (I've for years have considered "newbie" Peyton Manning one of the all-time best), but when Unitas' name doesn't even appear in a sea of Drew Breeses and Aaron Rogereres, I assume the list maker is a youngster wearing ESPN blinkers. It's also common, and a standard cognitive bias on the list of human cognitive biases, for all-time lists on any subject to be over populated with recent things. The list is made by a person or organization that views history and its details from its time, place and familiarity.

I have always argued that Brett Favre was the most valuable of his era because he played every game. Second, third or 5th best best is automatically more valuable in the game than number on the bench. Someone can perhaps rightfully argue that So-and-so was superior to Favre "when they were playing," but the "when they were playing" is a big disclaimer. Coupled with his on the field abilities (which people can argue over whether it was first, third or fifth), that Favre played every single game made him the most valuable. When the rubber hits the road, as they say.

TUM301 · #5 03-08-2016, 01:43 PM

As stated above, throw the raw #`s out the window. Watching Matt Stafford and the like go for 5000/40 + TD`s in a season has made stats what they are. That`s why I use the 'have to win one game this Sunday" criteria for best ever. Also, and this from as big a Brady fan as there is, guys like Unitas, Tarkenton, Elway, Staubach etc. would be running for their lives and taking huge "legal" hits every week. Offense sells obviously, but put me in the 24-21 game with great plays being made on both sides of the ball versus the 45+ pass attempts from both QB`s with a periodic run sprinkled in. Talent is talent and success comes from many intangibles. The players from all the mentioned eras have both and I think would have achieved what they did playing any time.
Ruth, he`s a special case. When one player literally carries the american sports scene and bye the way out homers entire teams, he has to be put above everyone else. Great topic for discussion boys, and my 2 cents.

wolf441 · #6 03-08-2016, 01:55 PM

While he probably doesn't belong on either the list of GOAT or best passers, Dan Fouts was a hell of a lot of fun to watch....

Mdmtx · #7 03-08-2016, 02:14 PM

Domes, more games, belief of passing selling tickets, tightened roughing the passer rules, stricter interference rules more athletic receivers have all contributed to the gaudy numbers posted by modern quarterbacks. I believe QB is one position that would be competitive over decades of time. The biggest asset to a QB is intelligence and decision making. Those skills haven't changed much. So you take manning and Brady. I will stick with moon, fouts , Marino, Starr, Unitas, staubach and Dawson.

I do understand that a couple of these guys benefitted from some of the "advances" pointed out in my first sentence. Give Marino or Fouts the dominating defense and they change the stat books forever

drcy · #8 03-08-2016, 02:30 PM

Dan Fouts' arm provided lots of entertainment and highlights and Dan Marino had an arm an a half. All you have to know about Dan Marino is he was slow but wasn't sacked for two years. Why? Because he had such a quick release. Marino makes my list as one of the all time best, and in his day was the best quarterback I'd seen with my own eyes.

Growing up a Green Bay Packers fan in Wisconsin, Lynn Dickey was our version of Dan Fouts. Call him "mini Dan Fouts" or "Dan Fouts Junior." Lots of entertainment value. Brett Favre was basically an improved version of Lynn Dickey for the Packers faithful, with the key quantitative difference being that Favre could run. Nearing the end of his long and battered career, I would say that my grandmother could run faster than Dickey.

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