T206 350/460 series (illustrated) and why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive

tedzan · #1 04-19-2016, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

Ted

You need to gather all of your T206 threads and put them in book form. I'm down for at least three copies.

David

I appreciate your suggestion. It would be quite a project, as I have been posting T206 stuff for over 10 years on Net54.

Thank you for your complimentary words.

TED Z
.

tedzan · #2 04-20-2016, 08:43 PM

VintageJay

Thanks....I appreciate your complimentary words.

TED Z
.

tedzan · #3 04-20-2016, 08:44 PM

The six super-prints ** were the first group of T206 subjects that were printed with 350 series backs and 460 series backs. American Lithographic printed
these 6 cards in their SOVEREIGN 350 & SOVEREIGN 460 press runs. This was the start of the 350/460 series, which was expanded to include 63 subjects.

The SOVEREIGN 460 cards of these 6 super-prints are very tough to find. And, especially the red Cobb.

.

. . . . . . . .

.

. .

** Note
In his book "Inside T206", Scot Reader's excellent analysis of the T206 set identifies these 6 subjects as the "super-prints".

TED Z
.

Sean · #4 04-20-2016, 09:41 PM

Hi Ted, I'm sorry for changing the subject, but I'm wondering if all of these Super prints were made with Red Hindu backs as well? I don't think that a Mathewson has ever been found?

I know that they aren't part of the exclusive twelve (I think that that's what you called them in another thread), but how difficult are these with a Red Hindu?

tedzan · #5 04-20-2016, 10:13 PM

Hi Sean

Listed here is my up-to-date info regarding the red HINDU cards The cards in the 350/460 series are all very tough to find with the red HINDU back.
Whereas, the Exclusive 12 cards (460-only series) are more available with the red HINDU backs.

To date, 31 subjects have been confirmed with the red HINDU back in the
350/460 series.

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow).............super-print
Chase (blue).............................super-print
Chase (dark cap).......................super-print
Cobb (red portrait).....................super-print
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)..........super-print
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)

Magee (bat)
Murphy (batting)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)

460-only series (Exclusive 12)

Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw (glove at hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat

The following 350/460 subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back. All four are possible with this back.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)................super-print
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Reulbach (no glove)

TED Z
.

Sean · #6 04-20-2016, 10:40 PM

Thanks Ted.

sreader3 · #7 04-21-2016, 05:10 PM

Hi Ted,

After surveying the situation, I believe the subject composition of all backs printed in the 460 series can be defined in relation to six groups, as follows:

Group A:
Baker – Young (Glove Shows)
(consists of 28 350/460 regular print subjects -- your Group A minus super prints minus Ames)

Group B:
Berger – Wiltse (Pitching)
(consists of 28 350/460 regular print subjects – your Group B)

Group C:
Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves) – Wiltse (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 22 460-only subjects not printed with P42 and not part of your "Exclusive 12")

Group D:
Chance (Portrait Yellow Background) – Mathewson (Dark Cap)
(consists of 6 350/460 super prints)

Group E:
Bergen (Catching) – Seymour (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 12 460-only subjects printed with P42)

Group F:
Crandall (Portrait with Cap) – Wheat
(consists of your “Exclusive 12” 460-only subjects)

Rule-Breaker: Ames (Arms Above Head)

* * *

Subject Composition for Backs printed in 460 Series:

American Beauty 460: B, C, E, F
Broad Leaf 460: A, D
Cycle 460: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
El Principe de Gales: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Hindu (Red): A, D, F
Lenox (Black): A, B, C, D, E (+ Ames)
Lenox (Brown): B, E
Old Mill: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Piedmont 460/25: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Piedmont 460/42: A, B, D, E (+ Ames)
Polar Bear: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Sweet Caporal 460/25: A, C, D, E (+ Ames)
Sweet Caporal 460/30: C, D, E, F
Sweet Caporal 460/42 No Overstrike: A, D, F (+ Ames)
Sweet Caporal 460/42 Overstrike: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Tolstoi: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Uzit: B, C, E, F (+ Ames)

The reason I have Ames as a "rule-breaker" is that he is available with both SC 460/25, which does not include Group B, and Uzit, which does not include Group A.

Please let me know if you see any errors in these proposed groupings.

Thanks.

Scot

(Note 1: Of course, EPDG, Old Mill, Polar Bear and Tolstoi were earlier-printed with subjects beyond those in the listed groups).

(Note 2: And, naturally, mutual exclusivity attaches with respect to backs which have none of Groups A-F, nor Ames, in common).

tedzan · #8 04-21-2016, 10:01 PM

Hi Scot

Everything you listed looks good to me....with the exception of your references to Ames. Sorry, but I have to differ with you on Ames for the following reasons......

1.... After 10+ years of collecting American Beauty 460 (AB 460) cards (I now have 70 of the 74 that were printed), I have never seen Ames with this back. And, I
think you will agree that although AB 460 cards are very tough, they are not that scarce that in this day there may be some still "missing in action". Such as there
are with the Broad Leaf 460, red Hindu, or Uzit backs.

2.... Furthermore, I have never seen this Ames with a Uzit back. Nor do I know of anyone having seen this front/back combo. I'm curious where you got that from ?

3.... The collage that Johnny V posted in Post #5 here clearly indicates that Ames is one of the 35 subjects printed in Group A.

4.... Finally, pardon me for reiterating this....but, there are 4 subjects (in Group A) that have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back. All four are possible with
this back based upon what we know regarding the mutually-printed backs in the 350/460 series. Eventually, these four will de discovered with red Hindu backs.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Reulbach (no glove)

Therefore, I do not believe that Ames is a "rule-breaker".

TED Z
.

tedzan · #9 04-25-2016, 07:36 AM

Including the 5 cards posted by Pat (post #28), I have accounted for 16 of these Sweet Caporal Factory #30 "scraps" in circulation......

Berger
Bradley
Burch
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy
Crawford
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Leifield
Overall
Smith (Chi & Bos)
Steinfeldt
Doc White
Wilhelm
Willis (bat)
Wiltse

Very interesting, so far all these guys are from the 350/460 series print group that I have designated as Group B.

Group B

If you know of more of these 350/460 series Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory #30 "scraps", please post them here.

Thanks,

TED Z
.

tedzan · #10 04-26-2016, 09:32 PM

Further research has accounted for 27 of these Sweet Caporal Factory #30 "scraps"....all of which are from Group B.

Missing from this group is the Lajoie card.

Berger
Bradley
Burch
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy
Crawford
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan
Lake
Leach
Leifield
Manning
McQuillan
Mullin
Overall
Pelty
Pfeister
Smith (Chi & Bos)
Steinfeldt
Tinker
Wagner
Doc White
Wilhelm
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse

If anyone knows of a Lajoie with a Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory #30 back...... please show or tell us of this card.

Thanks,

TED Z
.

Baseball*Collectibles · #11 04-27-2016, 06:34 AM

Thanks for doing this research Ted.

I have done as much research as I possibly can (my computer, with all of my scans etc., crashed ~ 5 years ago), on the confirmed AB460 with Ames. The only information I have are the threads here, eBay, AH sales and my email history. Here is my conclusion.

Back in 2005 until ~ 2006 I sold off my T206 collection, which consisted of near sets of Hindu's/Cycle's/AB's. Most of the collection was sold privately, however, I did sell quite a few to board members/eBay at the time. I found an email chain where I had listed 17 AB460's to a board member. Ames was on the list (Unfortunately no scans). I contacted the board member, and he has confirmed, although we never spoke about it at the time, my colossal error.

The card was a Cycle 460 not the AB460, so I must have accidentally cataloged and mistakenly sold the card as an AB460. One of these days I will spend the money to fix the failed hard drive to confirm, however, I am now 99% sure this was an error on my part, and to note, I should have confirmed the Cycle 460 on Bill's spreadsheet since I had multiple examples. My excel copy, at that time, did not have this card confirmed. Sorry for the confusion, and great job Ted on the research.

Thanks, Tom

tedzan · #12 04-27-2016, 07:45 AM

Hi Tom

I really appreciate your response here. It resolves the mystery of the "American Beauty 460" card of Ames.

Since Ames was not printed with an AB 460 back, then I'd bet that Ames was not printed with a UZIT back.

Thanks again,

TED Z
.

tedzan · #13 04-29-2016, 11:00 AM

The BROAD LEAF 460 cards exist ONLY in the 350/460 series. And, only 35 of the 63 subjects in this series were theoretically printed with the BROAD LEAF 460 backs.

Group A

.

As of today, these 27 subjects have been confirmed with the BROAD LEAF 460 back......

Baker
M. Brown (Chicago)
Cobb (red portrait)........................super-print
Davis (A's)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)...................super-print
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Mathewson (dark cap)....................super-print
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)

Seymour (throwing
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
Cy Young (glove)

There are 8 subjects from this group that have yet to be discovered. I expect these T206's will eventually be found with BROAD LEAF 460 backs......

Ames (hands above head)
Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow).................super-print
Chase (blue).................................super-print
Chase (dark cap)...........................super-print
Donlin (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)

TED Z
.

sreader3 · #14 04-29-2016, 11:30 AM

Hi Ted,

Sorry for the belated response. You've convinced me that Ames is a Group A guy. So here is an updated 460 series profile on which I hope we agree:

Group A:
Ames (Arms High) – Young (Glove Shows)
(consists of 29 350/460 regular print subjects -- your Group A minus super prints)

Group B:
Berger – Wiltse (Pitching)
(consists of 28 350/460 regular print subjects – your Group B)

Group C:
Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves) – Wiltse (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 22 460-only subjects not printed with P42 and not part of your "Exclusive 12")

Group D:
Chance (Portrait Yellow Background) – Mathewson (Dark Cap)
(consists of 6 350/460 super prints)

Group E:
Bergen (Catching) – Seymour (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 12 460-only subjects printed with P42)

Group F:
Crandall (Portrait with Cap) – Wheat
(consists of your “Exclusive 12” 460-only subjects)

* * *

Subject Composition for Backs Printed in 460 Series:

American Beauty 460: B, C, E, F
Broad Leaf 460: A, D
Cycle 460: A, B, C, D, E, F
El Principe de Gales: A, B, C, D, E, F
Hindu (Red): A, D, F
Lenox (Black): A, B, C, D, E
Lenox (Brown): B, E
Old Mill: A, B, C, D, E, F
Piedmont 460/25: A, B, C, D, E, F
Piedmont 460/42: A, B, D, E
Polar Bear: A, B, C, D, E, F
Sweet Caporal 460/25: A, C, D, E
Sweet Caporal 460/30: C, D, E, F
Sweet Caporal 460/42 No Overstrike: A, D, F
Sweet Caporal 460/42 Overstrike: A, B, C, D, E, F
Tolstoi: A, B, C, D, E, F
Uzit: B, C, E, F

Thanks.

Scot

(Note 1: Of course, EPDG, Old Mill, Polar Bear and Tolstoi were earlier-printed with subjects beyond those in the listed groups).

(Note 2: And, naturally, mutual exclusivity attaches with respect to backs which have none of Groups A-F in common).

tedzan · #15 04-29-2016, 11:13 PM

Hi Scot

I like the way you presented the 460 series profile. And, it all looks good to me.

Thanks,

TED Z
.

sreader3 · #16 04-30-2016, 03:56 AM

Thanks Ted.

I'm not 100% sure about Bergen's availability with P42 (not sure where you are on that), but we can leave him in Group E for now.

Scot

tedzan · #17 04-30-2016, 08:00 AM

Hi Scot

I too, am uncertain about Bergen.

My records dating back to 2006 indicate that his card was confirmed with Piedmont #42.

Then sometime (circa..2008) Bergen was unconfirmed. Then again, he was confirmed in 2010. But, I cannot find who reported this in 2010.

Incidently, with the exception of Overall & Schaefer, the other 10 guys are all New York based players. Is this a coincidence, or by design ?

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

TED Z
.

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