Iconic Players from each decade (50's/60's/70's)

[jason.1969]

Biased on the first one by my Angeleno roots, but Steve Garvey, Pete Rose, and Reggie seemed like the 3 icons of the 70s to me. Anyone else voting for Garv6?

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[KCRfan1]

Love Garvey, and he was one of the games best clutch hitters. Super nice guy as well. I will always associate him with Dodger Blue!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Love Garvey, and he was one of the games best clutch hitters. Super nice guy as well. I will always associate him with Dodger Blue!

Between getting a reputation as a jackass and sabrmetrics not liking his numbers so much, his stock has really dropped since his peak playing days.

[Touch'EmAll]

1960's = Jim Brown
1970's = Muhammad Ali

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

1960's = Jim Brown
1970's = Muhammad Ali

Ali dominated the 60s too.

[mrmopar]

I don't care personally, but it is funny that the conversations that ultimately include Garvey as a fringe in most people's minds (HOF, this topic, best of ___), almost always turn into a minor bash session on him.

I have collected his stuff for pretty much my whole collecting career but have only met him once. He definitely gets downplayed now, but he was big in the 70s and was often referred to as a shoo in for the HOF. I guess for the sake of my wallet, I am glad he never did make the HOF. Imagine the rash of crap that would be made to commemorate that event, as is the case with every inductee now! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I would give a nod to Garvey for the 70s for sure.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Between getting a reputation as a jackass and sabrmetrics not liking his numbers so much, his stock has really dropped since his peak playing days.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mrmopar

I don't care personally, but it is funny that the conversations that ultimately include Garvey as a fringe in most people's minds (HOF, this topic, best of ___), almost always turn into a minor bash session on him.

I have collected his stuff for pretty much my whole collecting career but have only met him once. He definitely gets downplayed now, but he was big in the 70s and was often referred to as a shoo in for the HOF. I guess for the sake of my wallet, I am glad he never did make the HOF. Imagine the rash of crap that would be made to commemorate that event, as is the case with every inductee now! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I would give a nod to Garvey for the 70s for sure.

Not bashing on him, just stating factually what happened. His personal life turned into a very well-publicized disaster. And he does not fare well by the sabrmetrics. He ranks 50TH at first base in JAWS for example -- kinda shocking given what seem to be some very good numbers.

[the 'stache]

Garvey, to me, was always a very good player, and incredibly consistent. But I just never thought he was a superstar. Even in the season he won the MVP, he only had a 130 OPS +.

I remember Garvey for playing every game, every season. And, every season, it seemed, he was getting 200 hits, 20 + home runs, and driving in 100 RBI. That's pretty good. But his career OBP is only .329. The National League OBP average between 1969 and 1987 is .320. His OBP is only 9 points higher than the league average during his career. If we're going to say that Roberto Clemente's career .359 OBP is somewhat low for a superstar, how low is a career mark 30 points lower than Clemente's? And Garvey's career SLG is only .446. I ran a report for all NL first baseman who had at least 3,000 ABs between 1969 and 1987. Keith Hernandez had a SLG one point lower than Garvey's, and he certainly was not a power hitter.

And while Garvey did win four Gold Gloves, metrics now show that perhaps he didn't deserve them. In the simplest terms, his dWAR for that four year period was a -2.4. Now, I take that with a grain of salt, because if we believe dWAR is accurate historically (I have my doubts), then Keith Hernandez, who is probably the best defensive first baseman I've seen in my lifetime was only worth slight over one win defensively (1.2 dWAR) during the 11 year period of 1978 to 1988, when he won twelve Gold Gloves.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not bashing on him, just stating factually what happened. His personal life turned into a very well-publicized disaster. And he does not fare well by the sabrmetrics. He ranks 50TH at first base in JAWS for example -- kinda shocking given what seem to be some very good numbers.

[KCRfan1]

Nice points Bill. Spahn usually seems to be overlooked by some, including me.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Between getting a reputation as a jackass and sabrmetrics not liking his numbers so much, his stock has really dropped since his peak playing days.

I can't speak for others experiences with him, but my personal experiences with Garvey were always very good.

Garvey was a very good player. Most teams would have loved to have had him playing for them. His OBP is skewed by his early and later years stats. During his peak with LA his OBP was only less than .341 once, and that was in '77 at .335. This covered a 7 year span. I would have loved to have had him on KC! The guy played almost every game, was good for almost 200 hits, 20+ home runs, 100 RBI's, and .300.

He raised his game in the post season hitting .338.

Sure he may not be HoF, but he was one of the best, if not the best, all around first base men in the game during the 70's.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Spahn had a great sense of humor too. Once Mays crushed a monster home run off him, in his rookie year I think, and reporters asked Spahn what had happened. He deadpanned, for the first 60 feet it was a great pitch.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Spahn had a great sense of humor too. Once Mays crushed a monster home run off him, in his rookie year I think, and reporters asked Spahn what had happened. He deadpanned, for the first 60 feet it was a great pitch.

I once sat directly in front of Spahn at old County Stadium in 1977 at a Brewers game. He didn't crack a joke.

[the 'stache]

I don't think anybody here disagrees with the assertion that Garvey was a good, consistent player. We're talking Hall of Fame here.

As for his OBP being skewed by his early and late years, couldn't you really say that about any player? I mean, Robin Yount was a career .285 hitter. Between 1978 and 1989, twelve years, he hit a combined .301. We talked about Clemente's lifetime .359 OBP as being a bit low. Well, eliminate his first five years, leaving his last thirteen years, and his career OBP is .375.

Garvey's OBP, even during his prime years of 1974 to 1981 (only eight seasons), was still only .346. He was a .309 hitter during that span, but only walked, on average, 36 times a year. He averaged only 26 walks a season for his career, or 33 per 162 games played.

It's not a knock on Garvey. New metrics have changed the perceptions of some players. Garvey, unfortunately for his fans, might be one where his stature is diminished slightly. The guy only missed 8 games between 1974 and 1982. And he was very productive in his prime. I'll take consistency and reliability on my team any time.

Garvey is one of those guys I consider a .300 hitter, even though his lifetime is only .294. Mantle is another (and it killed him that he finished below .300 for his career). A few really down seasons at the end of a career doesn't sour an otherwise brilliant career. But for those players who really remained truly great hitters at an advanced age, like Clemente, it should only add to their reputation.

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Garvey was a very good player. Most teams would have loved to have had him playing for them. His OBP is skewed by his early and later years stats. During his peak with LA his OBP was only less than .341 once, and that was in '77 at .335. This covered a 7 year span. I would have loved to have had him on KC! The guy played almost every game, was good for almost 200 hits, 20+ home runs, 100 RBI's, and .300.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/87...-espn-magazine

[KCRfan1]

I'm in agreement with you Bill.

Garvey was very good, just not good enough for the Hall.

Baseball seems to have become overly reliant on saber metrics at times, rather than sticking to the basics, like the stats on the back of a ball card.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I don't think anybody here disagrees with the assertion that Garvey was a good, consistent player. We're talking Hall of Fame here.

As for his OBP being skewed by his early and late years, couldn't you really say that about any player? I mean, Robin Yount was a career .285 hitter. Between 1978 and 1989, twelve years, he hit a combined .301. We talked about Clemente's lifetime .359 OBP as being a bit low. Well, eliminate his first five years, leaving his last thirteen years, and his career OBP is .375.

Garvey's OBP, even during his prime years of 1974 to 1981 (only eight seasons), was still only .346. He was a .309 hitter during that span, but only walked, on average, 36 times a year. He averaged only 26 walks a season for his career, or 33 per 162 games played.

It's not a knock on Garvey. New metrics have changed the perceptions of some players. Garvey, unfortunately for his fans, might be one where his stature is diminished slightly. The guy only missed 8 games between 1974 and 1982. And he was very productive in his prime. I'll take consistency and reliability on my team any time.

Garvey is one of those guys I consider a .300 hitter, even though his lifetime is only .294. Mantle is another (and it killed him that he finished below .300 for his career). A few really down seasons at the end of a career doesn't sour an otherwise brilliant career. But for those players who really remained truly great hitters at an advanced age, like Clemente, it should only add to their reputation.

One of the things that I don't like is the use of OBP for middle of the lineup hitters. Garvey's peak was HOF worthy. Throw out the strike year of 1981 and from 1974-80 he averaged 201 hits and 104 rbis. I would rather have that than 150 hits 100 bbs and 75 rbi. Garvey may not have walked a lot, in part because he wasn't a big HR hitter, but he drove in runs. I think his relatively short peak of 74-81 keeps him out of the HOF.

[KCRfan1]

That stupid strike in ' 81 hurt a lot of players stat line.

[David W]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

Biased on the first one by my Angeleno roots, but Steve Garvey, Pete Rose, and Reggie seemed like the 3 icons of the 70s to me. Anyone else voting for Garv6?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

In the Midwest to us Cardinal fans, Garvey was a swear word, as he stole the 74 MVP from it's rightful owner, Lou Brock.

But he was an iconic 70's star.