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#1
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Between getting a reputation as a jackass and sabrmetrics not liking his numbers so much, his stock has really dropped since his peak playing days.
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#2
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1960's = Jim Brown
1970's = Muhammad Ali |
#3
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Ali dominated the 60s too.
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#4
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I don't care personally, but it is funny that the conversations that ultimately include Garvey as a fringe in most people's minds (HOF, this topic, best of ___), almost always turn into a minor bash session on him.
I have collected his stuff for pretty much my whole collecting career but have only met him once. He definitely gets downplayed now, but he was big in the 70s and was often referred to as a shoo in for the HOF. I guess for the sake of my wallet, I am glad he never did make the HOF. Imagine the rash of crap that would be made to commemorate that event, as is the case with every inductee now! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ I would give a nod to Garvey for the 70s for sure.
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Looking for: Unique Steve Garvey items, select Dodgers Postcards & Team Issue photos |
#5
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-03-2016 at 09:16 PM. |
#6
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Garvey, to me, was always a very good player, and incredibly consistent. But I just never thought he was a superstar. Even in the season he won the MVP, he only had a 130 OPS +.
I remember Garvey for playing every game, every season. And, every season, it seemed, he was getting 200 hits, 20 + home runs, and driving in 100 RBI. That's pretty good. But his career OBP is only .329. The National League OBP average between 1969 and 1987 is .320. His OBP is only 9 points higher than the league average during his career. If we're going to say that Roberto Clemente's career .359 OBP is somewhat low for a superstar, how low is a career mark 30 points lower than Clemente's? And Garvey's career SLG is only .446. I ran a report for all NL first baseman who had at least 3,000 ABs between 1969 and 1987. Keith Hernandez had a SLG one point lower than Garvey's, and he certainly was not a power hitter. And while Garvey did win four Gold Gloves, metrics now show that perhaps he didn't deserve them. In the simplest terms, his dWAR for that four year period was a -2.4. Now, I take that with a grain of salt, because if we believe dWAR is accurate historically (I have my doubts), then Keith Hernandez, who is probably the best defensive first baseman I've seen in my lifetime was only worth slight over one win defensively (1.2 dWAR) during the 11 year period of 1978 to 1988, when he won twelve Gold Gloves. Quote:
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Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#7
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Nice points Bill. Spahn usually seems to be overlooked by some, including me.
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My new found obsession the t206! |
#8
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Garvey was a very good player. Most teams would have loved to have had him playing for them. His OBP is skewed by his early and later years stats. During his peak with LA his OBP was only less than .341 once, and that was in '77 at .335. This covered a 7 year span. I would have loved to have had him on KC! The guy played almost every game, was good for almost 200 hits, 20+ home runs, 100 RBI's, and .300. He raised his game in the post season hitting .338. Sure he may not be HoF, but he was one of the best, if not the best, all around first base men in the game during the 70's.
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My new found obsession the t206! Last edited by KCRfan1; 05-04-2016 at 07:06 AM. Reason: run on sentence |
#9
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Spahn had a great sense of humor too. Once Mays crushed a monster home run off him, in his rookie year I think, and reporters asked Spahn what had happened. He deadpanned, for the first 60 feet it was a great pitch.
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#10
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FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER NUMBER FATHER. GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH NON-FUNGIBLES 274/1000 Monster Number Nearly*1000* successful B/S/T transactions completed in 2012-24. Over 680 sales with satisfied Board members served. If you want fries with your order, just speak up. Thank you all. Now nearly PQ. |
#11
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I don't think anybody here disagrees with the assertion that Garvey was a good, consistent player. We're talking Hall of Fame here.
As for his OBP being skewed by his early and late years, couldn't you really say that about any player? I mean, Robin Yount was a career .285 hitter. Between 1978 and 1989, twelve years, he hit a combined .301. We talked about Clemente's lifetime .359 OBP as being a bit low. Well, eliminate his first five years, leaving his last thirteen years, and his career OBP is .375. Garvey's OBP, even during his prime years of 1974 to 1981 (only eight seasons), was still only .346. He was a .309 hitter during that span, but only walked, on average, 36 times a year. He averaged only 26 walks a season for his career, or 33 per 162 games played. It's not a knock on Garvey. New metrics have changed the perceptions of some players. Garvey, unfortunately for his fans, might be one where his stature is diminished slightly. The guy only missed 8 games between 1974 and 1982. And he was very productive in his prime. I'll take consistency and reliability on my team any time. Garvey is one of those guys I consider a .300 hitter, even though his lifetime is only .294. Mantle is another (and it killed him that he finished below .300 for his career). A few really down seasons at the end of a career doesn't sour an otherwise brilliant career. But for those players who really remained truly great hitters at an advanced age, like Clemente, it should only add to their reputation. Quote:
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Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#12
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#13
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I'm in agreement with you Bill.
Garvey was very good, just not good enough for the Hall. Baseball seems to have become overly reliant on saber metrics at times, rather than sticking to the basics, like the stats on the back of a ball card.
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My new found obsession the t206! |
#14
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No Garvey wasn't "great" - but that's not what the OP was listing... he wrote this (see post #1)
> I don't necessarily mean the BEST players, but the ones that are immediately connected to a time period. These would be the players that even non-baseball fans would have known about during each respective decade. < And I think that by that criteria Garvey fits - so too would a meteor like Fidrych in the 70s, and very good pitcher named Valenzuela in the 80s - even my non-sports fan grandmother knew who they were back in the day. She'd have known their names just as well as Jackie Robinson, Joe Dimaggio, Mickey Mantle, Ted Williams and Reggie Jackson. Their celebrity trascended the sports page - so even the "non sports fan" knew their names. |
#15
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I think you could add Willie Stargell to the 1970's list.
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Always collecting Pirates from the early 1900's thru the early 70's. Completed - 1967 Topps Baseball, 1969 Greiner Tires Pirates, 1964 Topps Giants, 1967 Topps Test Stickers - Pirates Also looking for a 1970's Spalding Advisory Staff photo of Richie Hebner. |
#16
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#17
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That stupid strike in ' 81 hurt a lot of players stat line.
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My new found obsession the t206! |
#18
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Here is a different angle, focused on how the players were viewed during the decade rather than now. I don't want to confuse this approach with anything perfectly scientific, but it shows the relative frequency of each player's name within the Google corpus of works published in the 1970s. (You may have to click on it to make it legible. Or you can try making your own pretty quickly.) Based on the dozen or so names I tried, Reggie and Pete Rose seem head and shoulders above all others.
1970s NGrams.jpg
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Thanks, Jason Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/ |
#19
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Thanks, Jason Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/ |
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