Ichiro

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by dgo71

I don't know where you get your baseball terms from, but there's no need for quotation marks around professional. Minor league players get paid to play the game, hence they are the very definition of professional. In my experience, only the casual fans don't understand that difference.

Would you consider barnstorming to be professional? They're getting paid. I have never heard of a fan refer to single A balls as the pros.

I know the literal definition of professional baseball, but I have never seen someone try to include minor league ball in career stat records.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I have never heard of a fan refer to single A balls as the pros.

Those are exactly the casual fans I referred to. Single-A, rookie ball for that matter, is pro. Why do you think there's such a fuss about eligibility with the recent draft picks. Ian Anderson, the #3 overall pick, cannot sign his professional contract until after June 23rd, when he graduates high school. Because it's a PROFESSIONAL contract.

Every single person I talk baseball with considers the minor leagues professional. Every player I've ever talked to considers it professional. The link from SABR, whose opinion on baseball is pretty relevant, considers it professional. I really don't even see where the debate is, this isn't a matter of opinion, it's a simple fact. Minor leaguers' rights are controlled by the parent club they are affiliated with, and they are paid from that same organization. It doesn't get any more professional than that.

Professional League and Major League are not the same thing and do not have the same meaning, although many confuse the two as being the same thing.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by dgo71

Those are exactly the casual fans I referred to. Single-A, rookie ball for that matter, is pro. Why do you think there's such a fuss about eligibility with the recent draft picks. Ian Anderson, the #3 overall pick, cannot sign his professional contract until after June 23rd, when he graduates high school. Because it's a PROFESSIONAL contract.

Every single person I talk baseball with considers the minor leagues professional. Every player I've ever talked to considers it professional. The link from SABR, whose opinion on baseball is pretty relevant, considers it professional. I really don't even see where the debate is, this isn't a matter of opinion, it's a simple fact. Minor leaguers' rights are controlled by the parent club they are affiliated with, and they are paid from that same organization. It doesn't get any more professional than that.

Professional League and Major League are not the same thing and do not have the same meaning, although many confuse the two as being the same thing.

This is beginning to deviate from my original point. There is no logical reason to consider minor league statistics in assessing the historical records of professional baseball players. We don't consider spring training (also professional baseball) or barnstorming (also professional baseball) or off season foreign exhibition games (also professional baseball). We track stats at baseballs highest levels which is the MLB in America, Negro Leagues when relevant and the NPB in Japan.

[dgo71]

To that point, Negro League statistics are not calculated into career MLB totals. Neither are foreign leagues. Jackie Robinson's stats in the Negro Leagues aren't on his HOF plaque and nobody considers Hideo Nomo to be a 200-game winner. This conversation only came about because Ichiro is in a unique situation and as great a player as he is, the media wants to make it an even bigger story.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by dgo71

To that point, Negro League statistics are not calculated into career MLB totals. Neither are foreign leagues. Jackie Robinson's stats in the Negro Leagues aren't on his HOF plaque and nobody considers Hideo Nomo to be a 200-game winner. This conversation only came about because Ichiro is in a unique situation and as great a player as he is, the media wants to make it an even bigger story.

Josh Gibson is credited with 800 home runs on his hall of fame plaque.

[packs]

It is a big story. They made a big deal when Matsui hit his 500th professional career home run too. But no one is saying Ichiro is the all time MLB hit leader just as no one claims Matsui has 500 MLB home runs. I don't understand what you're trying to take away from Ichiro. His combined totals cover two professional leagues, i.e. his career at the highest level of organized baseball in two countries. His hits in Japan came at the highest level. That's why people talk about them. His hits here come at the highest level. You can't fault a guy for being born in Japan and playing at the highest level available to him. Bringing up guys like Tuffy Rhodes to somehow say that Ichiro's previous successes weren't true successes is silly. Tuffy Rhodes couldn't hack it in MLB, Ichiro never had a chance to play in MLB until he'd already served his time in Japan. It's not the same thing.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

It is a big story. They made a big deal when Matsui hit his 500th professional career home run too. But no one is saying Ichiro is the all time MLB hit leader just as no one claims Matsui has 500 MLB home runs. I don't understand what you're trying to take away from Ichiro. His combined totals cover two professional leagues, i.e. his career at the highest level of organized baseball in two countries. His hits in Japan came at the highest level. That's why people talk about them. His hits here come at the highest level. You can't fault a guy for being born in Japan and playing at the highest level available to him. Bringing up guys like Tuffy Rhodes to somehow say that Ichiro's previous successes weren't true successes is silly. Tuffy Rhodes couldn't hack it in MLB, Ichiro never had a chance to play in MLB until he'd already served his time in Japan. It's not the same thing.

+1

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by packs

It is a big story. They made a big deal when Matsui hit his 500th professional career home run too. But no one is saying Ichiro is the all time MLB hit leader just as no one claims Matsui has 500 MLB home runs. I don't understand what you're trying to take away from Ichiro. His combined totals cover two professional leagues, i.e. his career at the highest level of organized baseball in two countries. His hits in Japan came at the highest level. That's why people talk about them. His hits here come at the highest level. You can't fault a guy for being born in Japan and playing at the highest level available to him. Bringing up guys like Tuffy Rhodes to somehow say that Ichiro's previous successes weren't true successes is silly. Tuffy Rhodes couldn't hack it in MLB, Ichiro never had a chance to play in MLB until he'd already served his time in Japan. It's not the same thing.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Ichiro. I said in my first post he's an amazing player and a sure-fire 1st ballot HOFer. I'm a huge fan of the guy. However, I also understand that the word "professional" doesn't somehow lose its meaning when applied to baseball, and if you're going to consider hits in Japan into career stats, then any level of professional ball should be considered. My point about Rhodes wasn't to diminish Ichiro's accomplishments, it was simply to point out that the Japanese League, whether it's their highest level or not, is not comparable to MLB, and it's not. It's no slight on Ichiro to say he's not the "professional hits leader" when it's true.

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Josh Gibson is credited with 800 home runs on his hall of fame plaque.

Josh Gibson never played in MLB. So...