|
#101
|
||||
|
||||
I am that way about Dale Murphy ,who was my favorite player as a kid, but deep in my heart, I know his career fell off too quickly to be a HOF player.
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits Last edited by bravos4evr; 06-17-2016 at 01:28 PM. |
#102
|
||||
|
||||
Not much room between Murphy and Rice though, and this from a Boston guy.
|
#103
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
If Murphy doesn't get that knee infection and can stay healthy for 5 years, he's a 500 homer candidate and an easy choice. But man...... he just didn't make it. If they wanted to put Murph in tho, I'm not going to second guess em! :-P
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits Last edited by bravos4evr; 06-17-2016 at 07:45 PM. |
#104
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
|
#105
|
||||
|
||||
When I compared the careers of Jim Rice, and Dwight Evans, let's just say my eyebrow raised.
Both played in the outfield for the Red Sox, Evans in right, Rice in left. Both played together for almost the entirety of their careers. Evans came up in '72, Rice in '74. Evans played in Boston until 1991, when he was a free agent picked up by Baltimore. He played 19 years at Fenway, putting up 2,505 games as a member of the Red Sox. Rice retired after the 1989 season. That's sixteen years out there together. Every opening day of Jim Rice's career, Evans was there, too. I get that Rice had some massive seasons early on in his career. So did Freddy Lynn, who was in center '74 to '80. But between '77 and '79, Rice was ridiculous with the bat; his average output for those three years: 114 runs, 207 hits, 31 doubles, 12 triples, 41 home runs, 128 RBI, a .320 AVG, and a slash line of .376/.596/.972. Those are real averages, not adjusted to 162 games. He only missed six games those three seasons. He led the league in total bases all three seasons. But that was really his peak. He had some othre really good seasons, and one other great season (1983; .305 AVG, 39 HR, 126 RBI, leading in the last two metrics. His 344 total bases led the league, too, and he slashed .361/.550/.911). In 1984, he hit only .280, but hit 28 home runs, and drove in 122. In 1986, he hit .324, driving in 110, but only hit 20 home runs. But Rice was a below average defender, and by WAR, his career total of 47.4 just doesn't add up. Now, Evans didn't have the huge seasons early in his career. From 1972 to 1980, his 162 game averages were not at all impressive: .262 AVG, 20 home runs, 68 RBI, and a .792 OPS. But Evans is the rare player who truly came into his own after age 30. 1981 was his breakout offensive season; he led the American League with 22 home runs, hit .296, and 85 walks, 215 total bases and a .937 OPS all led the league. For the first time, he received MVP votes, finishing third in the league. From 1981 to 1989, his 162 game averages spiked considerably; he hit .281, averaging 109 runs scored, 30 home runs, 104 RBI, and 106 walks versus 114 strikeouts. And, unlike Rice, he was a highly regarded defender. Evans won a total of eight Gold Gloves in his career. And, his career WAR of 66.9 is 19.5 higher than Rice's career total. So, why is Evans not in, and Rice is? I think, when it comes to baseball, voters rely heavily on reputation when handing out awards. Rice became one of the most feared hitters in the league early in his career. Evans was consistent, but not spectacular. Evans played four years longer than Rice. But, because of Evans' walk rate, he had only 771 more at bats than Rice. So, there really isn't a great discrepancy in their home run frequency. Rice averaged a home run every 21.5 at bats (382 home runs in 8,225 at bats). Evans averaged a home run every 23.4 at bats (385 home runs in 8,996 at bats). And their career OPS + metric is nearly identical; 127 for Evans, 128 for Rice. And though Rice had a much higher career batting average (.298 vs .272 for Evans), he had a lower OBP. Rice walked 670 times in his career, and Evans walked 1,391 times. Rice's OBP of .352 pales in comparison to Evans' .370. When we consider that these two players had equal power for their career, yet Evans got on base more, and was a vastly better fielder, it seems to me as if the Hall elected the wrong Red Sox outfielder. It took Rice fifteen years to get in. Evans, however, appeared on only three ballots. He fell off the ballot after getting only 3.6% of the vote in 1999.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. Last edited by the 'stache; 06-18-2016 at 01:58 AM. |
#106
|
||||
|
||||
As to my second and third choice, I'm still mulling it over.
Hodges is a tough sell for me. I love the Brooklyn Dodgers, and Gil was a great player. But Hall of Fame worthy? I just don't know. He's borderline, to me, at least. We're quick to drop Rice, but is Hodges more deserving? Gil had a career 45.0 WAR, and exactly three seasons of 5.0 or higher (5 being All Star caliber). And, even his best season by WAR, 1954, was only a 6.2. He never finished in the top five of any MVP vote in 18 seasons (well, 15 seasons of 100 or more games). His career OPS + is 120, which is seven points lower than Dwight Evans, who is not in. He won three Gold Gloves. His defensive metrics are ok, nothing great. Here's the main problem I have with Hodges. Besides his MVP finishes (three top ten finishes; 7th in 1957, 8th in 1950, and 10th in 1954) don't wow me. And, he never led the league in any meaningful category. Games played twice, strikeouts once. That's it. Don't get me wrong, I've always liked Gil Hodges. I just think he was overshadowed by Duke Snider for a reason. Really, if you look at the stars of the Dodgers, he was the fourth best offensive player on the team, behind Robinson, Campanella and Snider. Can somebody make a case for his induction, please? He hit a good deal of home runs; two 40 + seasons, four others of 30 +. He drove in a good deal of runs; from 1949 to 1955, he drove in 100 + each season. But where does he stand out as an exceptional player?
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#107
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
|
#108
|
||||
|
||||
Rice had an MVP and a few years where he was a dominant slugger. Evans was less spectacular, more consistent at putting up very good but not great numbers. I think that made the difference.
|
#109
|
||||
|
||||
I'm in the camp that says Evans is at least as deserving as Rice, if not more so. If you say Evans is close but doesn't belong, that's fine, but then neither does Rice.
__________________
Actively collecting Carl Yastrzemski ! Also 1964 & 68 Topps Venezuelans |
#110
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Lofton..... IDK why he was ignored.He was the premium lead off man of his era and a fine fielder
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits |
#111
|
|||
|
|||
Glad to see you take a look at those two!
There's a few things that fall into the "can't put numbers to it" category, and a few personal observations from going to a lot of games from 77- 82 (When you could walk up to the ticket window and buy what are now upper box seats as grandstand seats for a few dollars) First the observations on each, if you saw them play then it'll sound familiar. Rices HRs were usually amazing, ones I'd figure as almost demoralizing to the other team. I've never seen a ball get out of the park so fast, and many were well over the net in left. One he hit in I think 75 was supposedly one of only 3-4 to leave the park completely to the right of the flagpole. And the guys who hit the others was some pretty good company (I think...Mantle, Foxx, and one other. ) On the downside, he was treated somewhat poorly by the press, and didn't help himself there at all. Later in his career, there was something written about him needing glasses. He eventually got them, but picked a pretty awful style. And then took a lot of kidding about it to the point he stopped wearing them. His performance with glasses was much better, no big surprise. He did lead the league 4 straight years in grounding into double plays and was often in the top 10, one knock against him that is accurate. He wasn't really that bad of a fielder. 11 years in the top 10 for LF assists, and led twice in LF doubleplays and once in Fielding pct. for LF Of course like any left fielder in Fenway the assists and doubleplays are somewhat easier. And no matter how good you come across in stats, when it goes wrong .......Yikes. The year he retired was in a stretch where the "old" players were being treated very poorly by the management. Not even an opportunity to retire gracefully, just an announcement that they weren't being invited to spring training. And the date of the "special day" to Honor them, always a late season game against a poor gate draw. Rice basically checked out after that, his last game was August 3rd. The Sox currently say "formally retired" August 6, while Baseball reference says released Nov 13. Any way you look at it, it was an UGLY split. He didn't come back for Jim Rice day, which was also Bob Stanley day. (Stanley was there, and knifed one last beach ball ) How much his injuries affected him at the time is hard to say. His performance was poor for sure, but his replacement at DH Sam Horn ended up with an identically miserable WAR and displayed no power at all. Evans got the same poor treatment the next year but opted to become a free agent. Being fairly close to 400HR probably was part of that. Health issues really prevented him from continuing. Usually back spasms, which back then I always thought "really?! Back spasms? Then I got into my late 40's and had a couple.....And totally understood. He was a really amazing fielder. Right in Fenway is a bit easier than left, but only a bit. And he played it very well. What really set him apart was the arm. The only comparable player I've seen is Ichiro. There's no stat for how often guys hit a single that might stretch to a double and decided not to because of who the fielder was. Which is too bad because he'd probably be among the leaders. Led three times in RF assists, and three times in RF double plays, but that really doesn't tell the whole story. He was only on the HOF ballot 3 years, getting 5.9% 10.4 % and 3.6 % that last year was the one that made me really question how the HOF elections work. Because there's a reason he only got 3.6 and was off the ballot. Or more accurately, several reasons. Nolan Ryan 1st year 98.8% George Brett 1 st year 98.2% Robin Yount 1st year 77.5% Carlton Fisk 1st year 66.4% Plus 5 other eventual HOF ers ahead of him. There simply weren't enough votes to go around to keep a good fielder or even a great fielder on the ballot. I've felt since then that the 5% cutoff should be adjusted when there's a particularly strong group in its first year. Steve B Quote:
|
#112
|
||||
|
||||
My memories of Rice will first and foremost be grounding into a double play to kill a rally.
|
#113
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits Last edited by bravos4evr; 06-19-2016 at 08:43 PM. |
#114
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
I prefer to remember the homers. The announcers calls not so much since they seldom got enough time. "Here's the pitch, a swing homerun Jim Rice! " Some of them were just that quick. The rest of the top 7 grounding into doubleplays is a pretty good group. Cal Ripken, 350 Ivan Rodriguez 337 Hank Aaron 328 Albert Pujols 324 and counting (If I had the time, I'd have a move over hank here comes Albert shirt - Bonus if anyone gets what that refers to -should be easy) Yaz 323 Dave Winfield 319 Murray and Rice at 315. Julio Franco 312 And that's all over 300. Steve B |
#115
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-20-2016 at 03:40 PM. |
#116
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits |
#117
|
|||
|
|||
My three are:
Roger Maris Tony Oliva Minnie Minoso
__________________
Collect Vikings, Twins, Vintage HOF and also Off-Center vintage. ***A journey of a 1,000 miles begins with a single card! -Cardfusious Trade Page: [https://www.flickr.com/photos/187700522@N03/ Recent positve trades with: Brian Van Horn, frank bmd, nkesterke09, ajg, esehombre, mrmantlecollector, KC Doughboy, gregr2,bn2cardz, sycks22 |
#118
|
|||
|
|||
My three are:
Gil Hodges Don Newcombe Roger Maris |
#119
|
||||
|
||||
Top 3
#1 - Bo Jackson Football HOF
#2 - Roger Maris #3 - Bo Jackson Baseball HOF |
#120
|
|||
|
|||
My 3 are..
Dave Parker Dale Murphy Al Oliver |
#121
|
||||
|
||||
Tony Oliva
Dick Allen Vada Pinson Last edited by Mickey Mays; 02-21-2017 at 02:44 PM. |
#122
|
||||
|
||||
Minnie Minoso
Luis Tiant Albert Belle (betcha won't be many votes for him)
__________________
. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson “If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente |
#123
|
|||
|
|||
Steve Garvey
Ken Boyer Gil Hodges Last edited by Johnny630; 01-28-2017 at 07:59 AM. |
#124
|
||||
|
||||
I'll only list guys that I saw play
Jeff Kent Edgar Martinez Don Mattingly |
#125
|
||||
|
||||
Hodges
Schilling Morris
__________________
[FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]CampyFan39 Last edited by campyfan39; 01-25-2017 at 08:07 PM. |
#126
|
|||
|
|||
Jim Edmonds,Fred Mcgriff and David Justice. Loved those guys growing up!
|
#127
|
||||
|
||||
These two
Roger Maris and Bo Jackson - were these two not famous?
|
#128
|
||||
|
||||
Updating after HOF election
Trammell Whitaker Schilling Last edited by rats60; 01-25-2017 at 09:40 PM. |
#129
|
|||
|
|||
Roger Maris
Dean Chance Carl Furillo Maury Wills Minnie Minoso Bill Pierce Allie Reynolds Ed Lopat Tom Tresh Mel Stottlemyre Frank Howard Tommy John I realize a dozen is not three, but I could go on and on.... oh yes, Billy Martin! Sometimes I really like someone for just a single season, or, in the case of Mr. Martin, his performance in the 1952-53 World Series. It isn't always a career that moves me. ---Brian Powell Last edited by brian1961; 01-26-2017 at 11:59 AM. |
#130
|
||||
|
||||
I prefer to stay out of the 'who should be in' debates so approaching this from a collector/investment standpoint. If I was going to collect cards of a non-HOF player who are the ones I would feel most confident of them holding their value or increasing in value even if they never were enshrined. The post-war players that I would put at the top of my list are:
Gil Hodges Roger Maris Thurman Munson Bo Jackson
__________________
Personal Collection Magic Number: 29 Collecting Hall of Famers and players with Nebraska connections. |
#131
|
|||
|
|||
Mattingly
Maris Albert Belle |
#132
|
||||
|
||||
Fred McGriff
Roger Clemens Barry Bonds I really don't get all the love for Roger Maris. If you take his first 2 years as a Yankee out of the equation he is average at best. He has a .260 lifetime BA and he hit close to 40% of his career home runs in those 2 years. |
#133
|
||||
|
||||
Garvey - Mr. Clean (or Popeye as my Dad called him due to his massive forearms) was my childhood baseball hero - Go Dodgers!
Munson - leader and general badass. He was not a fan of Reggie Jackson, which made the enemy of my enemy my friend. I don't have a third but if I had to add one he would be anyone from the best infield that ever was: Lopes, Russell, or Cey. |
#134
|
|||
|
|||
Jack Morris, Trammel and Mattingly.
Z |
#135
|
||||
|
||||
Munson
Mattingly O'Doul Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
M@tt McC@arthy I collect Hal Chase, Diamond Stars (PSA 5 or better), 1951 Bowman (Raw Ex or better), 1954 Topps (PSA 7 or better), 1956 Topps (Raw Ex or better), 3x5 Hall of Fame Autographs and autographed Perez Steele Postcards. You can see my collection by going to http://www.collectorfocus.com/collection/BigSix. |
#136
|
||||
|
||||
I love this thread, because it is mainly based on actual observations of players we saw in action every day and not so much dependent on ancient career stats numbers.
1. Anyone who grew up in the 70'/80's saw Steve Garvey as a huge star. When any of us New Yorkers thought about facing the Dodgers, Garvey was the man. 2. He got hurt and that's what screwed him, but Don Mattingly was an absolute force for a bunch of years until he had no choice but to hang up his cleats. 3. Thurman Munson was the bare knuckled heart of the Yankees as they regained their place at the summit of the American League.
__________________
All the cool kids love my YouTube Channel:
Elm's Adventures in Cardboard Land https://www.youtube.com/@TheJollyElm Looking to trade? Here's my bucket: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152396...57685904801706 “I was such a dangerous hitter I even got intentional walks during batting practice.” Casey Stengel Spelling "Yastrzemski" correctly without needing to look it up since the 1980s. Overpaying yesterday is simply underpaying tomorrow. |
#137
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Dale Murphy Don Mattingly |
#138
|
||||
|
||||
Steve Garvey
Don Mattingly Eric Davis
__________________
Working Sets: Baseball- T206 SLers - Virginia League (-1) 1952 Topps - low numbers (-1) 1954 Bowman (-3) 1964 Topps Giants auto'd (-2) |
#139
|
||||
|
||||
Murphy and Mattingly here as well. A half decade of being pretty much the main offensive force in your league does it for me.
When considering a player I ask, "Could we tell the story of baseball in this player's time without mentioning him?" In the case of Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly, I don't think one could discuss 1980's baseball without mentioning these two studs. |
#140
|
||||
|
||||
Alan Trammell
Gil Hodges Ted Simmons It's a travesty that Simmons dropped off so quickly. Yes, he was average defensively but the guy could hit. Put him up against any catcher of that era outside of Bench. Last edited by Beatles Guy; 01-28-2017 at 08:32 AM. |
#141
|
||||
|
||||
So many slippery slopes with common sense criteria. This rationale for Ted Simmons (though Fisk fans may differ) would make Concepcion a shoo-in. Probably Bill Freehan too for the 60s.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
__________________
Thanks, Jason Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/ |
#142
|
||||
|
||||
Thurman Munson, Gil Hodges, Benny Agbayani
|
#143
|
||||
|
||||
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#144
|
||||
|
||||
Maris, Mattingly and
Vada Pinson
__________________
T206 154/518 second time around R312 49/50 1962 Topps 598/598 super set 694/697 ...whatever I want |
#145
|
|||
|
|||
Gil Hodges, Bobby Grich, Jim Kaat
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions |
#146
|
|||
|
|||
But you can't take Maris's first two seasons with the Yankees out of the equation; they happened. I don't think he has career HOF numbers, but I think he is kind of a special case. He endured a lot of bullshit during that '61 season, which I personally think affected the remainder of his career. Anyone who saw Maris play will swear he was an incredible all-around player.
Last edited by legendaryplayers; 02-21-2017 at 02:21 PM. |
#147
|
||||
|
||||
The Maris discussion brings back memories to when 61 HRs seemed like a lot!
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
__________________
Thanks, Jason Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/ |
#148
|
|||
|
|||
My guys.
Great thread.
__________________
Legacy Board Member Since 2009. Hundreds of successful transactions here on Network 54. Buy/Sell/Trade with Confidence. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Mid-grade HOFers, raw HOFers, and all kinds of stuff for sale | Luke | T206 cards B/S/T | 1 | 04-23-2015 08:03 PM |
HOFers and Non HOFers 11/2 update. | Lordstan | Autographs & Game Used B/S/T | 107 | 11-02-2014 03:04 PM |
Baseball Autographs for Sale - HOFers and non HOFers | RichardSimon | Baseball Memorabilia B/S/T | 4 | 04-30-2011 06:12 AM |
FS: PSA 9/10 70s/80s/90s HOFers, Future HOFers and Near HOFers | Archive | 1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T | 1 | 06-03-2008 07:12 PM |
Signed vintage index cards for sale - HOFers and non HOFers | Archive | Baseball Memorabilia B/S/T | 3 | 05-14-2008 03:13 PM |