David Ortiz

[steve B]

I'd like to see Ortiz get the MVP, but I'm fairly certain he won't unless something crazy happens.

Not running well?! This year he's got 2 SB without being caught. Already it's the third most bases he's stolen in a season and a long way to go. He does run like a large 40 year old power hitter, and the Sox have seldom been a team big on running.

I don't really buy the "he's just a DH" argument for any player. Especially since people making that argument are usually the same ones who downplay defensive ability when considering players. (Not a specific statement about anyone here, just a general observation) Either defense matters or it doesn't.

I also take what's an odd view of the MVP. I don't see it as something that should be only about great stats and being on a winning team. So many times you see a player from the series winner picked, when there's players with similar numbers on crummy teams that get few votes. Who's more valuable the guy who has excellent stats on a team that would probably be a good team without him or the guy who is pretty much the only decent player on his team?
That's less common in baseball, and with a long season it's less likely for one good player to prop up a bad team, but in football it's pretty crazy.

Steve B

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'd like to see Ortiz get the MVP, but I'm fairly certain he won't unless something crazy happens.

Not running well?! This year he's got 2 SB without being caught. Already it's the third most bases he's stolen in a season and a long way to go. He does run like a large 40 year old power hitter, and the Sox have seldom been a team big on running.

I don't really buy the "he's just a DH" argument for any player. Especially since people making that argument are usually the same ones who downplay defensive ability when considering players. (Not a specific statement about anyone here, just a general observation) Either defense matters or it doesn't.

I also take what's an odd view of the MVP. I don't see it as something that should be only about great stats and being on a winning team. So many times you see a player from the series winner picked, when there's players with similar numbers on crummy teams that get few votes. Who's more valuable the guy who has excellent stats on a team that would probably be a good team without him or the guy who is pretty much the only decent player on his team?
That's less common in baseball, and with a long season it's less likely for one good player to prop up a bad team, but in football it's pretty crazy.

Steve B

If said DH is at or near the top in WAR then yeah I can ignore defense, but 23rd????

I tend to think that the entire concept of MVP has been twisted over the years. It was supposed to mean "player who had the best season" now it means "player who had the best season ,and the best narrative ,on the team that made the playoffs" so it seems that MVP is now contingent on other people too. (which makes no sense)

[chaddurbin]

when in doubt, just default to mike trout. that's been my rule for the last 4 years.

as for ortiz, he's not even the mvp of his own team...much less the league. c'mon now. ortiz is like kyle schwarber on roid (literally and figuratively).

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

when in doubt, just default to mike trout. that's been my rule for the last 4 years.

as for ortiz, he's not even the mvp of his own team...much less the league. c'mon now. ortiz is like kyle schwarber on roid (literally and figuratively).

pretty much (though due to his team's record I expect the winner to be Donaldson or Altuve if those teams make the playoffs)

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

If said DH is at or near the top in WAR then yeah I can ignore defense, but 23rd????

I tend to think that the entire concept of MVP has been twisted over the years. It was supposed to mean "player who had the best season" now it means "player who had the best season ,and the best narrative ,on the team that made the playoffs" so it seems that MVP is now contingent on other people too. (which makes no sense)

I was just reading a bit about WAR, and as I'm understanding it they count six different categories including fielding, which leaves any DH a bit short since they basically get 0 for fielding. (Maybe a bit of a toss up, some would probably lose points some would gain. )

Checking offensive WAR, he's currently 9th, at 3.7 tied with Bradley and Betts, and behind Bogaerts who is at 4.2 (Not sure just how that works, since Ortiz is ahead in most of the categories)He's ahead of anyone on the team in most of the traditional stats, usually by a lot. So realistically not in the running for MVP, but hardly a "bad" season. For someone at age 40.

All in all, it's just a really great season to enjoy watching. He's doing very well for a 40 year old guy, and is leading in a few categories for that age.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...s_40_bat.shtml



I get the "player with the best season" view. I don't think that can be done considering the players as isolated from the team. So much of the things a player can do are affected by the players around him. Especially in the lineup, where the presence or absence of a solid hitter in the spot following can change the approach a pitcher takes. A power hitter without at least a solid hitter behind him won't see as many good pitches, since the risk of a walk leading to a run is lower if the following hitters are weak. (Either for power or average or worse, both. ) Not that I entirely agree, the chances of a double or better aren't really all that good, even for the best hitters.

Steve B

[MacDice]

Since the BBWA doesn't rexongize the Dh as a position I wild say no.

[chaddurbin]

War is position-adjusted... So a dh is supposed to produce more than a ss... Hence why Ortiz with better stats is worse than bogaerts n mookie.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by steve B

I was just reading a bit about WAR, and as I'm understanding it they count six different categories including fielding, which leaves any DH a bit short since they basically get 0 for fielding. (Maybe a bit of a toss up, some would probably lose points some would gain. )

Checking offensive WAR, he's currently 9th, at 3.7 tied with Bradley and Betts, and behind Bogaerts who is at 4.2 (Not sure just how that works, since Ortiz is ahead in most of the categories)He's ahead of anyone on the team in most of the traditional stats, usually by a lot. So realistically not in the running for MVP, but hardly a "bad" season. For someone at age 40.

All in all, it's just a really great season to enjoy watching. He's doing very well for a 40 year old guy, and is leading in a few categories for that age.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...s_40_bat.shtml



I get the "player with the best season" view. I don't think that can be done considering the players as isolated from the team. So much of the things a player can do are affected by the players around him. Especially in the lineup, where the presence or absence of a solid hitter in the spot following can change the approach a pitcher takes. A power hitter without at least a solid hitter behind him won't see as many good pitches, since the risk of a walk leading to a run is lower if the following hitters are weak. (Either for power or average or worse, both. ) Not that I entirely agree, the chances of a double or better aren't really all that good, even for the best hitters.

Steve B

bolding above mine: The difference is because base running counts as part of offensive WAR. So fast guys like Betts, JBJ or Bogaerts have an edge there.

Yes WAR counts against DH's because they don't play any defense. Which makes sense as it wouldn't be fair to credit them with anything for not playing defense. Not to mention they don't have the wear and tear of playing defense either.

But yeah,Ortiz is having a good year. If I were him I'd sign another 1 year deal and stick around a bit. But there is something to be said for leaving on a good year instead of waiting to have the eventual collapse.

[Joshchisox08]

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

bolding above mine: The difference is because base running counts as part of offensive WAR. So fast guys like Betts, JBJ or Bogaerts have an edge there.

Yes WAR counts against DH's because they don't play any defense. Which makes sense as it wouldn't be fair to credit them with anything for not playing defense. Not to mention they don't have the wear and tear of playing defense either.

But yeah,Ortiz is having a good year. If I were him I'd sign another 1 year deal and stick around a bit. But there is something to be said for leaving on a good year instead of waiting to have the eventual collapse.

I'd love to have him around another year. But since he's still saying that he won't I'd be disappointed in him if he came back.

I liked Mike Schmidt, and only respected him more when he declined to play in the AS game in 89 when he'd been voted into the starting spot even though he retired earlier in the season.

Steve B