Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache
Aaron for me, hands down.
And better player? I do think Mays was the better player, but I think the margin is small.
Mays played center. Aaron right. Mays is one of the best defensive center fielders to ever play the game. He was dynamite. But Aaron was a damned good right fielder. The problem with his defensive reputation is that he played the same position, at the same time, as arguably the best right fielder to ever play the game. Aaron won three Gold Gloves between 1958 and 1960. Clemente then proceeded to win the next twelve.
Offensively, their metrics are nearly identical. For his career, Mays has a 156 OPS +. Aaron's is 155. Their career bWAR is pretty close, too, though Aaron did end up playing almost two more years worth of ball. Aaron has a 142.6 WAR. Mays is at 156.2. But he also gets a bonus to dWAR from playing a premium position (as he should). That accounts for the gap.
Base stealing? Mays stole more often, but, interestingly enough, they have nearly identical career efficiency. Mays swiped 338 bases in 441 tries, good for a 76.64% success rate. Aaron swiped 240 bases in 313 attempts, good for a 76.67% success rate. Mays gets the nod here because he went more often. But he was not a better base stealer.
And as for this stadium debate...I spent ten years attending games at Milwaukee County Stadium, and let me tell you, hitting the ball out of the park there is not as easy as some of you guys are making it. Yes, the Polo Grounds, where Mays played, was a canyon. Hitting it out of dead center field was nearly unheard of. But he left New York at age 26. The next two seasons were played at Seals Stadium. The power alley in left center was 364'. At Milwaukee County Stadium, it was 377'. Candlestick Park was ready in 1960. Mays hit 29 home runs that year, and the power alley in left was 397'. The next year, they brought the wall in, to 365'. The left field foul marker at the Stick was 335', and '320 at County Stadium. Well, 15' is a significant difference, but he benefited from the Polo Grounds and its 279' left field foul pole until he was 26, so....
And if you guys are going to bring up the wind coming from the bay in San Francisco, just stop. If you've ever spent a summer evening at County Stadium, you know the winds coming in from Lake Michigan can be pretty wicked. So, I don't buy this whole "Aaron had it easier because of where he played."
Look at their lifetime splits.
Aaron: 755 home runs. 385 home. 370 on the road.
Mays: 660 home runs. 335 home. 325 on the road.
OPS + adjusts for park factors. Their career OPS Is nearly identical. Aaron had the same career stolen base success rate. And he was a pretty good fielder.
I give Mays his due. Absolutely. But let's slow down with the "Mays was clearly the better player" spiel. It's not accurate.
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Aaron has a negative defensive WAR. Aaron had a good arm, but I think he was below average as a fielder. Mays' raw defensive numbers are significantly better than Aaron's even before defensive adjustments. Gold Gloves are a poor metric for defense, Derek Jeter has won Gold Gloves and he is terrible defensively. There is also no prohibition against 2 RF or 2 CF getting gold gloves, so the idea that Clemente prevented him from winning more is false.
Mays was a much better base runner. You only mention stolen bases. Mays took extra bases 63% of the time. He was arguably the best. Aaron took extra bases only 51%.
Both Candlestick and County Stadium were easy parks to hit the ball out of. Looking at the numbers, there is no advantage SF vs. Mil. Polo Grounds was an extremely easy park for HRS, but Aaron's advantage comes from his years in Atlanta. It was the easiest park to hit HRS in. Its nickname "the launching pad" was well deserved. Then the Braves moved the fences in where Aaron liked to hit the ball, the power alleys, making it even easier to hit HRs. Then after Aaron broke the HR record and Aaron was slowing down, they moved them back.
09-29-2016, 09:08 AM
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