Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

[DixieBaseball]

MichelaiTorres83;1844471]Where does it say that date is a criteria?

What I am saying is Coupon was released most likely during the 1910-11 based off everything we know, and probably should be lumped in as the 17th ATC brand produced by American Lithographic, which would mean it is more closely related to those 16 brands that have been designated T206, and therefore should be part of the T206 set. It is far closer to the T206 group than the 1914 & 19 Coupon Type 2, 3, with glossy finish, blue lettering, and different minor league players featured in the set that are not featured in the T206 set. I think Burdick simply lumped Type 1's because of the name Coupon even though the Type 1's are way closer to the sixteen 1909-11 T206 Brands than even they are with the 1914 & 1919 Coupon Brands.


What we know :

1. It looks just like the other 16 ATC brands Burdick included in T206.
2. According to Lew Lipset's Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, the entire Coupon group consist of 350 series.
3. Also, according to Lipset's EOBBC, the 20 Southern Leaguers featured in Coupon were issued with the 350 series subjects.
4. The Coupon has a Size variance, just like the other T206 brand, American Beauty. (Depth/Width)

Side Note :

*The T211 Red Sun set was released in New Orleans (early Spring due to dating of players in minor and majors) and the intended 2nd series was not released. Perhaps that was due to the ATC break up in May of 1911. If the T206 brands seized ball card production in 1911 from the ATC break up, then most likely the 2nd Series for T211 never got off the ground for the same reasons. This could be a likely reason for Coupons being in limited numbers if it is from the 350 series only, released at back end of 1910, early 1911. (In previous posts, I was wondering why Red Sun didn't release their 2nd series and also drawing a parallel with Coupon as 2 sets in New Orleans that didn't do very well in terms of cards released, and I suggested there was some event that disrupted that 2nd series of Red Suns, as well as more Coupons being released with packs/cartons of cigarettes. The only event I can find around that timeline is the ATC break up which was obviously a big deal as it disrupted the whole industry and T206 cards as we know them stopped in 1911. Apologies for the ramble...)

* More Info - In 1915 Category 4 Hurricane hit New Orleans... http://www.neworleansbar.org/uploads...20Irby_1-2.pdf

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

MichelaiTorres83;1844471]Where does it say that date is a criteria?

What I am saying is Coupon was released most likely during the 1910-11 based off everything we know, and probably should be lumped in as the 17th ATC brand produced by American Lithographic, which would mean it is more closely related to those 16 brands that have been designated T206, and therefore should be part of the T206 set. It is far closer to the T206 group than the 1914 & 19 Coupon Type 2, 3, with glossy finish, blue lettering, and different minor league players featured in the set that are not featured in the T206 set. I think Burdick simply lumped Type 1's because of the name Coupon even though the Type 1's are way closer to the sixteen 1909-11 T206 Brands than even they are with the 1914 & 1919 Coupon Brands.


What we know :

1. It looks just like the other 16 ATC brands Burdick included in T206.
2. According to Lew Lipset's Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, the entire Coupon group consist of 350 series.3. Also, according to Lipset's EOBBC, the 20 Southern Leaguers featured in Coupon were issued with the 350 series subjects. 4. The Coupon has a Size variance, just like the other T206 brand, American Beauty. (Depth/Width)

Side Note :
*The T211 Red Sun set was released in New Orleans (early Spring due to dating of players in minor and majors) and the intended 2nd series was not released. Perhaps that was due to the ATC break up in May of 1911. If the T206 brands seized ball card production in 1911 from the ATC break up, then most likely the 2nd Series for T211 never got off the ground for the same reasons. This could be a likely reason for Coupons being in limited numbers if it is from the 350 series only, released at back end of 1910, early 1911. (In previous posts, I was wondering why Red Sun didn't release their 2nd series and also drawing a parallel with Coupon as 2 sets in New Orleans that didn't do very well in terms of cards released, and I suggested there was some event that disrupted that 2nd series of Red Suns, as well as more Coupons being released with packs/cartons of cigarettes. The only event I can find around that timeline is the ATC break up which was obviously a big deal as it disrupted the whole industry and T206 cards as we know them stopped in 1911. Apologies for the ramble...)

The Southern Leaguers are 150/350 subjects.

img653.jpg

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Pat R

The Southern Leaguers are 150/350 subjects.

Pat - Are you referring to just the 20 Southern Association players in the Coupon set as 150/350 series or are you referring to the 48 players that are referred to as "Southern Leaguer's" in the T206 set? The Texas League, South Atlantic League, and Virginia league are commonly lumped in that verbiage as "Southern Leaguers" when in fact they actually are not. The 20 players featured in the Coupon set are from the Southern Association.

Also, maybe you or Ted can clear up what Lew Lipset meant when he said "It is not surprising to find this entire Coupon Series to consist of 350 series subjects."

Pat - What do you make of the Texas, Virginia, and South Atlantic League "SL" players not being present in this set, and only the 20 Southern Association players present which I believe were 350 series only, correct !?

Edited to add, if the 150 subjects are present what does this prove? It's still in the 1909-11 time frame. Does it imply there could have been more of the 150 subjects? Are all 68 cards featured as 350 subjects ? Did Lipset miss this? What correlation or theory are you trying to prove?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Pat - Are you referring to just the 20 Southern Association players in the Coupon set as 150/350 series or are you referring to the 48 players that are referred to as "Southern Leaguer's" in the T206 set? The Texas League, South Atlantic League, and Virginia league are commonly lumped in that verbiage as "Southern Leaguers" when in fact they actually are not. The 20 players featured in the Coupon set are from the Southern Association.

Also, maybe you or Ted can clear up what Lew Lipset meant when he said "It is not surprising to find this entire Coupon Series to consist of 350 series subjects."

Pat - What do you make of the Texas, Virginia, and South Atlantic League "SL" players not being present in this set, and only the 20 Southern Association players present which I believe were 350 series only, correct !?
Edited to add, if the 150 subjects are present what does this prove? It's still in the 1909-11 time frame. Does it imply there could have been more of the 150 subjects? Are all 68 cards featured as 350 subjects ? Did Lipset miss this? What correlation or theory are you trying to prove?

Jeremy, the 20 subjects were printed with Hindu and possibly Old Mill during the 150
series printing so they are 150/350 subjects.

img650.jpg

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Jeremy, the 20 subjects were printed with Hindu and possibly Old Mill during the 150
series printing so they are 150/350 subjects.

Attachment 340350

Gotcha - Thanks for the newspaper ad info! So, that dates Coupons from 1909-1911 instead of 1910-11 as I originally thought.... (assuming 350 series was printed in 1910-11)

Do you know if the 20 Southern Association players were all printed during the 350 series? Perhaps that is what Lipset meant...

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Gotcha - Thanks for the newspaper ad info! So, that dates Coupons from 1909-1911 instead of 1910-11 as I originally thought.... (assuming 350 series was printed in 1910-11)

Do you know if the 20 Southern Association players were all printed during the 350 series? Perhaps that is what Lipset meant...

No the 350 only subjects in the coupons eliminate them from the 1909 date.

Here's the thread I posted when I found the Old Mill ad

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...light=Old+Mill

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Pat R

No the 350 only subjects in the coupons eliminate them from the 1909 date.

Here's the thread I posted when I found the Old Mill ad

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...light=Old+Mill

Ok, so back to my original theory 1910-11 !?

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Jeremy, the 20 subjects were printed with Hindu and possibly Old Mill during the 150
series printing so they are 150/350 subjects.

Attachment 340350

Were Jimmy Hart and Bill Hart printed with a Hindu back? I'm following the argument that we should just leave the nomenclature as it is. I don't follow the argument that Coupon 1 backs are some vastly separate set. I'm not a T206 expert, but I'm familiar with the cards and read T206Resource and stuff.
I was just hoping to learn more about the set because I collect it. If we don't learn more about it, that's okay too. Have a good one, guys.