PWCC first 1 sticker, then 2, now 3 different?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I don't see the conflict. One doesn't need to be a "professional grader" to see that a card has great eye appeal given its technical grade.

Right, and the logical extension of that is one doesn't need PWCC to see that for them either.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right, and the logical extension of that is one doesn't need PWCC to see that for them either.

Who cares? This is like crying over spilled milk. If it gets a consignor more money, and there is full transparency, then good for PWCC. A LOT of our members use them and seem happy. I spoke with Brent quite a bit at the Texas Card Show and they have some neat stuff going on, besides the stickers. Time will tell.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Who cares? This is like crying over spilled milk. If it gets a consignor more money, and there is full transparency, then good for PWCC. A LOT of our members use them and seem happy. I spoke with Brent quite a bit at the Texas Card Show and they have some neat stuff going on, besides the stickers. Time will tell.

.

I suppose I care one because it likely drives up prices and two because stupid gimmicks just offend me. I agree that it's good marketing, my issue is more with the people who put value on these stickers.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I suppose I care one because it likely drives up prices and two because stupid gimmicks just offend me. I agree that it's good marketing, my issue is more with the people who put value on these stickers.

But you're trying to rationalize it. You can't. I'm the same way with grading. For the life of me, I don't understand why someone cares about what someone else thinks about their card. It blows my mind. What makes someone submit a card to be graded? Are they really that ignorant of hobby standards that they can't look at a card and judge the condition for themselves that they need a 3rd party to do it for them? Do these same people seek advice about other things too? Do these same people need reassurance to tell them how pretty their wife is? How fine their home is? How nice their car is? If not, then why do they need someone to tell them the condition of their card? There's absolutely no difference in a buyer putting value in a PWCC sticker than there is some collector putting value in what some TPG says. Again, I'm with you, Peter. It doesn't make sense to me either. But rather than trying to make sense of it, I just go with it. Who am I to tell someone else what to collect, how to collect or what to spend?

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

But you're trying to rationalize it. You can't. I'm the same way with grading. For the life of me, I don't understand why someone cares about what someone else thinks about their card. It blows my mind. What makes someone submit a card to be graded? Are they really that ignorant of hobby standards that they can't look at a card and judge the condition for themselves that they need a 3rd party to do it for them? Do these same people seek advice about other things too? Do these same people need reassurance to tell them how pretty their wife is? How fine their home is? How nice their car is? If not, then why do they need someone to tell them the condition of their card? There's absolutely no difference in a buyer putting value in a PWCC sticker than there is some collector putting value in what some TPG says. Again, I'm with you, Peter. It doesn't make sense to me either. But rather than trying to make sense of it, I just go with it. Who am I to tell someone else what to collect, how to collect or what to spend?

Have you not seen the price differential between a 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan in a PSA 8, PSA 9 and PSA 10?

Seems like it would be pretty easy to understand why people spend the money to get a card graded. This isn't rocket science.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Have you not seen the price differential between a 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan in a PSA 8, PSA 9 and PSA 10?

Seems like it would be pretty easy to understand why people spend the money to get a card graded. This isn't rocket science.

Go crack out that same PSA 10 Jordan RC and try to sell it raw. Do you think it would sell for near the price it would as if it were still graded a 10? No way! Same card, nothing changed with the card itself. Now go have the card re-graded, but let's say it comes back a 9 this time. Does it have more value than it did when it was raw? Sure. Does it have the same value it did when it was a 10? No. Once again, same card, nothing's changed. So where is the value? Is it in the card or in the slab/flip? This isn't rocket science.

The only difference is it now has someone else's opinion assigned to it. So did grading the card add value to it, or did it add perceived value to it? If the card changes value based on the flip, then it's only perceived value. There's a difference. As someone in the financial industry, you do understand that, right? This is a hobby where many are building their collections strictly on perceived value. What happens to perceived value over time? I think even a first grader can figure that one out.

I'll build my collection on real value. You build your collection on perceived value. How about that?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'll build my collection on real value. You build your collection on perceived value. How about that?

But isn't your raw collection based on your own perceived value of it?

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Go crack out that same PSA 10 Jordan RC and try to sell it raw. Do you think it would sell for near the price it would as if it were still graded a 10? No way! Same card, nothing changed with the card itself. Now go have the card re-graded, but let's say it comes back a 9 this time. Does it have more value than it did when it was raw? Sure. Does it have the same value it did when it was a 10? No. Once again, same card, nothing's changed. So where is the value? Is it in the card or in the slab/flip? This isn't rocket science.

The only difference is it now has someone else's opinion assigned to it. So did grading the card add value to it, or did it add perceived value to it? If the card changes value based on the flip, then it's only perceived value. There's a difference. As someone in the financial industry, you do understand that, right? This is a hobby where many are building their collections strictly on perceived value. What happens to perceived value over time? I think even a first grader can figure that one out.

I'll build my collection on real value. You build your collection on perceived value. How about that?

Dude you are out to pasture on this topic. Your disgust for the third party graders has clouded your judgment to a level that can't saved.

It doesn't matter if the card would sell for the same raw after being cracked out. No one is cracking out that card.

You are like the short seller that has been betting against Amazon since it was $200 saying the valuation is unsustainable.

None of us make the rules. The market does and the market has spoken and prices cards based on a grade that is plastered on top of a plastic holder. The Jordan in a PSA 10 has gone from $6,500 in 2009 to in some cases $30,000 today. The Jeter 1993 SP has gone from $6,500 to nearly a $100,000. It is what it is.

Trying to make some philosophical argument as to why people are stupid for wanting someone else to appraise the condition fully knowing that the capital investment can have exponential returns is laughable.

Thanks for the entertainment.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

But you're trying to rationalize it. You can't. I'm the same way with grading. For the life of me, I don't understand why someone cares about what someone else thinks about their card. It blows my mind. What makes someone submit a card to be graded? Are they really that ignorant of hobby standards that they can't look at a card and judge the condition for themselves that they need a 3rd party to do it for them? Do these same people seek advice about other things too? Do these same people need reassurance to tell them how pretty their wife is? How fine their home is? How nice their car is? If not, then why do they need someone to tell them the condition of their card? There's absolutely no difference in a buyer putting value in a PWCC sticker than there is some collector putting value in what some TPG says. Again, I'm with you, Peter. It doesn't make sense to me either. But rather than trying to make sense of it, I just go with it. Who am I to tell someone else what to collect, how to collect or what to spend?

I'm not sure but I suspect people send cards in for grading because the grading of the card increases the value exponentially. I don't believe submitters need reassurance, I think they need the card in a slab to maximize its resale value.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I'm not sure but I suspect people send cards in for grading because the grading of the card increases the value exponentially.

Fine, but can't the same thing be said about the silly PWCC sticker? So why the pointless thread?

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I'm not sure but I suspect people send cards in for grading because the grading of the card increases the value exponentially. I don't believe submitters need reassurance, I think they need the card in a slab to maximize its resale value.

I like many have taken a card I paid $2 for and invested $6 more and made it a $650 card.

If someone passed the first grade and can count it is pretty easy to figure out.

[Leon]

I have sent many cards in and then received the news they were altered. Alterations which I didn't catch. I remember a 1914 Boston Garter Speaker? that I bought and sent it into SGC. It came back altered; it had a slight touch up to it and I got a full refund. That particular authentication saved me 5 digits, probably. Oh, grading the cards increases their value too.
At the Texas Card Show I gave SGC a few things to grade. As the show went on I made multiple trips back to give them cards to add to the ones already submitted. I didn't do that to lose money.

Originally Posted by calvindog

I'm not sure but I suspect people send cards in for grading because the grading of the card increases the value exponentially. I don't believe submitters need reassurance, I think they need the card in a slab to maximize its resale value.

[58pinson]

Originally Posted by Leon

If it gets a consignor more money, and there is full transparency, then good for PWCC.

.

As a first time consignor to the PWCC auction that is currently starting I couldn't agree more. After trying to move cards at the White Plains show and seeing what PWCC was getting for the same cards I was blown out of the water. I am hoping to more than double my return. If they decide to sticker any of my cards I'm not going to complain.

[bobbyw8469]

After trying to move cards at the White Plains show and seeing what PWCC was getting for the same cards I was blown out of the water.

This is the part that kind of blows me away. PWCC does NOT have the monopoly on being a great seller. There are a TON of great sellers out there. I consider myself a great seller. That being said, like you stated, I am amazed they they get such a premium for their 1968 Roberto Clemente PSA 4 (to pick a random card). They bring even higher prices than the BIN's out there!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

This is the part that kind of blows me away. PWCC does NOT have the monopoly on being a great seller. There are a TON of great sellers out there. I consider myself a great seller. That being said, like you stated, I am amazed they they get such a premium for their 1968 Roberto Clemente PSA 4 (to pick a random card). They bring even higher prices than the BIN's out there!

What constitutes what makes one "a great seller" these days...is it high ethical/moral standards? If so I'd consider myself a great seller...albeit a tiny, insignificant one at that.

More and more I think it's the offering of high quality material. And PWCC definitely consistently offers that! They offer big auction house quality items routinely...and that seems to trump everything these days.

And to address Davids' comments...this is the world we are living in now...social media...many people want/desire constant attention!

[lowpopper]

Hey guys,

It is understood that the majority of the contributors to
this board do have superior knowledge in grading than
your typical collector. Top collectors and dealers for the
most part, CAN certainly identify what looks high end for
the given grade. These people do not need a sticker
or person to direct their thought processes.

Think about this however: What about the vast majority
of collectors who do not deal with grading every single
day? Could they not benefit from some assistance with this
concept? If you can rattle off the centering parameters
for an entire company’s grading scale, then the stickers
are probably not for you. Some people do need some
guidance however. If you have an eagle eye, it does not
mean everybody else does. “Joe Collector” out there might
not even know what grading standards mean in the first
place. Just remember that some of us happen to be blessed
with a skill set that not everybody is fortunate enough to
master. There are people out there who can benefit from
some consultation regardless of whether or not an auction
house is profiting from it. Other stickers are coming. It’s
not just about PWCC.

Could more stickers ultimately dilute the PWCC product?
Possibly, but this could very well be a universally accepted
standard 10 years from now. Coin grading is on a 70 point
scale (30 are used) and it is an accepted practice to grade
them A, B, and C quality within a grade. That is 90 grades if
I’m not mistaken. CAC stickers are a real thing. Price guides
have a separate column for slabbed coins that are stickered.
Coins also have numerous positive qualifiers: FS, FB, CAM,
DCAM, FBL... the list is enormous. Why this is not used on
cards sets like 89 Upper Deck for “Full Hologram” is beyond
knowledge I am privy to. Nonetheless, given the evolutionary
climate of the hobby in conjunction with a moderate amount
of extrapolation, I can assume we will see it some day.


I make the coin grading comparison because it pre-dates the
entire card hobby and has a much bigger overall market.
Stickers have been an accepted concept in coins for years
along with others that we seem on the cusp of. Observing the
evolution of coin grading seems to be the crystal ball for cards.
Most card graders use 19 or 20 grades in there scale
and that is a relatively recent scope. Not too long ago, it was a
10 point scale, right? Considering how every cards is unique,
those are still pretty small numbers. If coins have a 30 point
scale which is then separated into 3 categories of quality, I
see card grading dissected much further in years to come.


Oh and I know everybody loves to bash Brent, but the guy
seems highly intelligent and creative. Going after him for
every little thing reminds me of the steroids in baseball
controversy...the guys who play the best receive the most
criticism. If PWCC wasn’t a literal powerhouse, all this would
be non-topic. I personally love seeing all the new ideas not
only thought of, but actually put in motion. A new concept
can’t be accepted until someone introduces it to the world
first. The auction house residing only on eBay, the stickers,
the vault which can directly turn your auction winnings into
managed commodities/futures. Oh and you can borrow cash
against your equity. Who else is doing that on a large scale?
It’s all genius stuff. I believe we will look back and say the
guy was a hobby pioneer...Brent, game recognize game. Real talk.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Leon

Who cares? This is like crying over spilled milk. If it gets a consignor more money, and there is full transparency, then good for PWCC. A LOT of our members use them and seem happy. I spoke with Brent quite a bit at the Texas Card Show and they have some neat stuff going on, besides the stickers. Time will tell.

.

This situation reminds me when Vince McMahon decided to take the wrestling business in a new direction. He had tons of haters and hurt a lot of feelings but in the end his new ideas made a lot of people a lot of money.

I think it is great that someone is trying to shake things up in the card world.

If you read the comments on Facebook when cards are posted by PSA or Sports Collectors Daily loads of them think all cards are worthless and the hobby is totally dead.

Those that follow it obviously know that isn't true.