1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ?

Originally Posted by abctoo

My 1988 1st edition of the Standard Catalog puts the special 13 card Jackie Robinson set at $3,150 NM, with all of the individual cards at $250 NM each, except the Robinson Portrait Card (with facsimile autograph), which it values at $150 NM. Today, you couldn't touch a single NM card of the set for the 1988 price of the complete set (and probably could not find a complete in that condition offered for sale back then).


So, be well, Mike

Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 26521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

Interesting to note that the White Border Portrait w/ Facsimile Auto is now the card in highest demand and market value as CharleyBrown's research was able to conclusively prove that it was the first of the set of 13 released and even pre-dates the 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson by at least a year.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

Interesting to note that the White Border Portrait w/ Facsimile Auto is now the card in highest demand and market value as CharleyBrown's research was able to conclusively prove that it was the first of the set of 13 released and even pre-dates the 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson by at least a year.

Sorry to correct you, Dan. The LEAF BB cards were issued in 1949. I'm not faulting you (or others on this forum), who refer to this set of BB cards as 1948.
The fault is with PSA, who has perpetuated this myth.

Originally Posted by tedzan

ROOKIE card.....issued Summer 1947 .…..……………..….....……. 1948 ....……..…...…..…....… 1948
.





Early Spring 1949 ..………...………...................…...………. Mid Spring 1949

. .
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TED Z

T206 Reference
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[GasHouseGang]

I take it that you're implying something from this quote:

"...the London Dry London Dry Beverages (including gin) cards. Those few known have identical pictures to Bond Bread package inserts, except have “square” corners. They are rubberstamped on the back: “Compliments of / LONDON DRY / TRADE MARK REGISTERED / The Topper of all Drinks (with logo in between) / BEVERAGES.”

Very little is known about the London Dry cards except that in the late 1940s, some were released in New York City (the same city where the Festberg remainders were found 20 years later). It will be difficult to find one, but once you find the right track, it will lead you to more."

Are you implying that maybe the Festberg cards were actually London Dry Beverage Card leftovers that never got rubber-stamped? I couldn't find the checklist for the London Dry cards, so I can't tell if that's even a possibility.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I take it that you're implying something from this quote:

"...the London Dry London Dry Beverages (including gin) cards. Those few known have identical pictures to Bond Bread package inserts, except have “square” corners. They are rubberstamped on the back: “Compliments of / LONDON DRY / TRADE MARK REGISTERED / The Topper of all Drinks (with logo in between) / BEVERAGES.”

Very little is known about the London Dry cards except that in the late 1940s, some were released in New York City (the same city where the Festberg remainders were found 20 years later). It will be difficult to find one, but once you find the right track, it will lead you to more."

Are you implying that maybe the Festberg cards were actually London Dry Beverage Card leftovers that never got rubber-stamped? I couldn't find the checklist for the London Dry cards, so I can't tell if that's even a possibility.

GasHouseGang, You're just like me. I been searching for a long time for a checklist on the internet. I can't find one either. It's almost impossible to find any references to the cards. I did find a couple of wantlists that included the London set but no specific players were mentioned. I've also only found three pictures of different cards (Bob Feller, Stan Musial and Ralph Kiner) and
no others. The pictures on those cards are identical to the player pictures on Bond Bread cards. These three are the few I was able to find. If anyone knows of any others, let us know.

A couple of months ago while using a friend's computer, I found an unidentified magazine page on-line with a large ad for London Dry Beverages. The page had a 1949 date and the ad indicated a non-specific sports card was available at bars and restaurants. Printed at the bottom of the ad was "London Dry / New York City." I could neither copy, print, download or otherwise transmit a copy of the ad from its webpage.

I had always associated "London Dry" with gin so assumed the advertiser was a gin distiller. To respond to your inquiry, I started a search for the ad so I could post it in reply. Along the way I found out that "London Dry" is not a brand name for a gin, but a generic name for a particular process of distilling gin. M any brands of gin include "London Dry" in their product name.

So I then thought, how could the card say that "London Dry" was its registered trademark? I searched the website of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) and found many companies have limited trademark rights to the words, "London Gin."

Along the way, I found the following picture of a wooden crate using the same typeface for "London Dry" and artwork used on the cards.



This led me to the following from the USPTO:



It's a 1960 trademark renewal of one first granted first issued in January 1938 to London Dry Ginger Ale Co. of Wilmington, Delaware, for use with Carbonated Beverages sold as Soft Drinks and for use as Mixers. I had associated "London Dry" with gin and that is exactly what London Dry wanted me to do. They're not a gin maker, but the maker of the various mixer that can go into it.

Now to your real question. Earlier today I suggested above how it might be interesting to try to do what seemed impossible - - to collect London Dry cards. While writing that, I realized that London Dry cards and Festberg remainders were both in New York City, both were about the same size, both had square corners, and the three players I knew of on London Dry cards were the same as pictured on the Festberg remainders.

So I swung at the ball with the information about both being in New York City. It wasn't actually an implication. I thought I had only popped up the ball so we could see where it landed. And GasHouseGang, you sure caught it.




* * * * *

Regardless, we can all dream of finding that old restaurant or bar, perhaps in New York, that still may have a London Dry card or two stuck in the back of an old drawer and hasn't been touched for years.

Stay healthy,

Mike

Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

Originally Posted by tedzan

Sorry to correct you, Dan. The LEAF BB cards were issued in 1949. I'm not faulting you (or others on this forum), who refer to this set of BB cards as 1948.
The fault is with PSA, who has perpetuated this myth.






TED Z

T206 Reference
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Ted,
I thought there was some debate as to the exact release date of the 48/49 Leaf product. Not arguing your point, there may be evidence it was never released in 1948. The larger point I was making is that the white bordered portrait w/ facsimile autograph was released a year or more before the Leaf card, which would probably be closer to a year and half if Leaf cards weren’t released until 1949.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

Ted,
I thought there was some debate as to the exact release date of the 48/49 Leaf product. Not arguing your point, there may be evidence it was never released in 1948. The larger point I was making is that the white bordered portrait w/ facsimile autograph was released a year or more before the Leaf card, which would probably be closer to a year and half if Leaf cards weren’t released until 1949.

Dan

There is NO debate amongst veteran hobbyist regarding the 1949 LEAF BB set's issue date.

There is evidence that the 1949 LEAF BB cards were NEVER issued in 1948. Before I present it, here....I collected these LEAF cards in my youth.
I clearly recall that they were first available in early Spring of 1949 (coincident with the start of the BB season). Old-timers in this hobby (who
also collected these cards in their youth) totally agree that these LEAF cards were not available in 1948. We were still collecting LEAF FB and
Boxing cards in 1948.
Here is the evidence printed in the bio of the Lou Boudreau card......

.


Lou Boudreau's MVP Award was announced in mid December of 1948.


Here is an uncut sheet of the 1st Series cards issued in early Spring of 1949.




Furthermore, check-out my 8-page story on the 1949 LEAF set in the OLD CARBOARD Magazine (Issue #9). You'll find it very informative
and very interesting.....http://oldcardboard.com/misc/issue09/issue09.asp.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Just to show you guys how absolutely IGNORANT both PSA and SGC are regarding the 1949 LEAF set, take a close look at the date on the flips of these graded
1949 LEAF HOFer Premiums. WOW ! they are identified as.....1949 ! !
Ten HOFer Premiums were available at our corner candy stores. Each 24-count waxpack box contained one Premium inside the bottom of the box. Sometimes, a
generous store manager would reward a kid with a HOFer Premium, when that kid purchased the very last waxpack (or waxpacks) in a given box.
Kids would usually acquire a Premium by giving the store manager ten LEAF wrappers and requesting a certain HOFer.

Obviously, both PSA and SGC absolutely contradict themselves by having these Premiums dated 1949, but have the LEAF BB cards dated 1948. And, there is no
hope that PSA, nor SGC, will ever correct the date on their graded LEAF cards to reflect the true date of 1949.


Here are 2 of my HOFer Premiums.....Babe Ruth and the Lou Gehrig.



.


HOFer Premiums Checklist

Babe Ruth (light background, no text)
Babe Ruth (blue background, no text)
Babe Ruth (dark background, text)
Grover Cleveland Alexander
Mickey Cochrane
Lou Gehrig
Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
John McGraw
Ed Walsh



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[GasHouseGang]

That's good information Ted. I always assumed that the kids had to send away for those premiums. I didn't realize they were actually in the box with the cards.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

That's good information Ted. I always assumed that the kids had to send away for those premiums. I didn't realize they were actually in the box with the cards.

David M (GasHouseGang)

The LEAF album and the Pennants were obtained by mailing in LEAF wrappers.

Read all about it in my 8-page story on the 1949 LEAF set in the OLD CARBOARD Magazine (Issue #9).
You will find it very informative and very interesting.....http://oldcardboard.com/misc/issue09/issue09.asp.


Here is my other Babe Ruth Premium. I'm still looking for the blue background version (it is a tough one).




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

There is NO debate amongst veteran hobbyist regarding the 1949 LEAF BB set's issue date.

Ted is absolutely correct.

I believe that those who continue to foist the misidentification of cards upon the unsuspecting have no interest in being honest, especially when it affects their pocketbooks.

Card grading services know they generate a significant portion of their revenue from identifying cards people believe are "rookie" cards. Many dealers take advantage of this, especially with higher priced cards, because they can say its a genuine card authenticated by such-and-such grading company.

Over a month ago, I contacted PSA about helping them resolve the issues of incorrectly attributing cards as "Bond Bread" ones.

I even proposed simple solutions to make correct attributions that did not require them to recall their slabs with wrong identifications.

Simply put, first start identifying the cards correctly.

They already have population reports, price guides, set registry reports and a myriad of other information on their website about these misidentified cards.

They can change the title of those sections to the correct identification AND include a note in each of the corrected sections saying something like, "Information we have obtained tells us that those cards previous labeled as "Bond Bread ****" should be correctly attributed as a card belonging to this set. They are not "Bond Bread *****' cards."

The links that were titled with the old "Bond Bread ***** information should not be renamed, but when clicked should jump to the webpage with the correct identification. Of course, just like any other listing, new links with the correct name will have to be included where appropriate.

I even suggested ways to relabel the old slabs if the owner wanted them relabeled.

That may not remove many of the misidentified cards from the market place, but it's a start. Hopefully, the new information on the website will give some concern to those who may want to pass off the misidentified cards.

At least new slabs misidentifying cards as "Bond Bread" will no longer appear.

Mike

P.S. Can you guess what was PSA's response?

Copyright 2020, b Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Sorry to correct you, Dan. The LEAF BB cards were issued in 1949. I'm not faulting you (or others on this forum), who refer to this set of BB cards as 1948.
The fault is with PSA, who has perpetuated this myth.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Very nice, Ted. I finally picked one up. Shown once before but still apropos...

[Exhibitman]

Mine:

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Mine:

In my opinion, both your card and Leon's posted just above it are genuine 1947 Bond Bread package insert cards even though they appear to be slightly different because of the amount of ink impressed.

Both of these two cards have creases and other wear that clearly does not make them near mint.

I base my opinion that these two are Bond Bread inserts on my belief that most of the high grade Robinson cards of identical appearance come from the Sports Star Subjects sets that were issued in packets that protected them from such wear.

My view is controversial because many swear the Sports Star Subjects sets were issued in 1949-1950, and thus its Jackie Robinson card and some others would not be “rookie” cards. However, there are those who have responded to this thread (and elsewhere) who state they obtained packets of the Sports Star Subjects set with “rounded” corners like the Bond Bread package inserts in 1947 (and others who state they received packets with “square” corners in 1947).

The 48 card Sports Star Subjects set was issued in four series of different packets of 12, with each packet having two varieties. The difference is the imprint on the back of the packets. Some read “W.S.” / “N.Y” while others have that inscription clearly obliterated. Other than being identified with the Sports Star Subjects and Screen Star Subjects sets, no one responding to this thread was aware of who W.S.N.Y was until an association was made with the similarity in packaging of the “Navy Ships” / “Airplanes” set (W673) for which advertising in 1950 publications was located. The “Navy Ships” packets are printed with “A.J. Wildman & Son, New York” on the back. Thus the Sports Star Subjects (and the related Screen Star Subjects) sets were assumed to be issued about 1950. The contents of the “Navy Ships” set does indicate it could not have been issued earlier than Winter of 1949 as the newest ship/plane card in the set is the Martin XB-51 1st Prototype shown as a drawing that is virtually identical to the real photograph taken of its first flight on October 28, 1949.

What was missed was what was started to be discussed on the vintagecards website in 2011 and subsequently about “W.S.,” “W.S.N.Y.C.,” “A.J. Wildman New York,” and related sets. The association to the 1939 “Generals & Their Flags” set with “ © W.S. 1939, N.Y.C. ” printed on the back (and the anonymous 1936 sets of “American G-Men”) and other "W.S." sets from 1938-1942 was beginning to be drawn, as it had not been previously addressed in the ACC or other card catalogs.

The additional information about W.S. issuing cards long before 1947 challenges the assumption that the Sports Star Subjects set (that is identical to the 1947 Bond Bread package insert cards) was issued in 1949-1950. W.S. had been issuing a variety of sets of cards from more than 10 years before Bond Bread's 1947 issue.

We do have two distinct issues: 1947 Bond Bread package inserts and the Sports Star Subjects set. The cards though, are virtually identical. Since there are statements from various collectors of have received the Sports Star Subjects and Screen Star Subjects sets in packets in 1947, it appears to me that it is incorrect to assume those sets were not issued until 1949-1950.

That raises the issue of whether the Jackie Robinson and other cards of those sets are “rookie” cards, but from another set, and then again, which was issued first. The Bond Bread cards were not released until after the start of the 1947 baseball season. The other sets were sold in places like Macys and on newstands.

We know these baseball cards from either set were popular back then. Bond Bread issues tens of thousands of each player in bread packages for at least 6 months (and perhaps until the start of the 1948 baseball season). The second set of Sports Star Subjects packets with the “W.S.” / “N.Y” obliterated is indicative of that popularity and the need for more supply. We have found that W.S. was having issues before World War II with the printing of sets (unresolved during the War) that may have caused its name identification to be obliterated for a period of time after the War, and are working on resolving the dating issues.

There are other sets (non-sports sets) issued post-WWII through 1950 that came in the same style of packages as the Sports Star Subjects, Screen Star Subjects, and “Navy Ship” sets. Some indicate other publishers while others indicate none. I would appreciate it if anyone who has such a packet would send me a picture in a private message or post it in this thread.

Thanks,

Mike

P.S. [added 4/18/2021] Ted's pictures in this thread of the original 1947 Bond Bread cards he obtained back then suggests he has the highest condition Jackie Robinson and other cards that can be proven to be part of the 48 card set that actually came in Bond Bread packages. The fact that several grading companies placed similar looking cards in slabs they labeled as "1947 Bond Bread" package inserts, particularly those with higher grades, does not establish which of the various similarly looking sets the slab's enclosure came from.