Anyone else feeling raw is their only option these days?

scmavl · #1 02-23-2021, 07:35 AM

I've been doing the same over the past six months. Just sent a large order (for me) to PSA with a lot of vintage so we'll see how I did. I've got a '52 Minoso, '58 Mantle, and '60 Yaz RC that I'm hoping will do well. The rest of it will come in expectedly low.

ALR-bishop · #2 02-23-2021, 07:52 AM

Cards in their natural state has been my preference since 1957, when it was mostly the only option

Rookiemonster · #3 02-23-2021, 08:32 AM

I�ve always like the raw way just like ODB

bobsbbcards · #4 02-23-2021, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Cards in their natural state has been my preference since 1957, when it was mostly the only option

I love the "mostly" qualifier. The late '50s were the era of SPUTNIK GRADING and the ilk.

ALR-bishop · #5 02-23-2021, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsbbcards

I love the "mostly" qualifier. The late '50s were the era of SPUTNIK GRADING and the ilk.

I was worried there may have been some early slabs from the Christmas Rack Pack folks that I had missed

rats60 · #6 02-23-2021, 12:33 PM

When I first joined here to move back into vintage, I had some low grade cards that I was trying to move to have money for t205s. 1952 Topps Jackie Robinson, 1953 Topps Mickey Mantle, 1954 Bowman Ted Williams and other Mantles and Rookies. I collected vintage in the 80s and none of my cards were graded. No one here had any interest.

I still have a 1933 Goudey set, all ungraded and a t206 set, with only 5 graded cards, all the graded cards recent purchases. I still prefer raw cards, it is good to see that I am not the only one. The more cards I get graded to sell, the more disenchanted I become with the whole idea of grading cards. There is no consistency by any of the companies, yet thousands of dollars are at stake over their opinion.

Seven · #7 02-23-2021, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

When I first joined here to move back into vintage, I had some low grade cards that I was trying to move to have money for t205s. 1952 Topps Jackie Robinson, 1953 Topps Mickey Mantle, 1954 Bowman Ted Williams and other Mantles and Rookies. I collected vintage in the 80s and none of my cards were graded. No one here had any interest.

I still have a 1933 Goudey set, all ungraded and a t206 set, with only 5 graded cards, all the graded cards recent purchases. I still prefer raw cards, it is good to see that I am not the only one. The more cards I get graded to sell, the more disenchanted I become with the whole idea of grading cards. There is no consistency by any of the companies, yet thousands of dollars are at stake over their opinion.

That's one of my biggest issues with Grading. I don't understand how a BGS 2 can be a PSA 3 or an SGC 1, and who exactly are these people grading them, what qualifications separate the guys at BGS from the guys at SGC?

I'm still not at the point where I can fully determine if some raw cards are real or fake, so with certain high end purchases, I have to make sure their graded, or if they are raw, are coming from someone that I trust/ is trust worthy. Fortunately there's many trustworthy people here on Net54!

ASF123 · #8 02-23-2021, 04:14 PM

Quote:

I still prefer raw cards, it is good to see that I am not the only one. The more cards I get graded to sell, the more disenchanted I become with the whole idea of grading cards. There is no consistency by any of the companies, yet thousands of dollars are at stake over their opinion.

Amen - plus, they live to nitpick and sh*t all over great-looking cards.

I was reading on the main board yesterday about the guy who submitted the Uncle Jimmy collection to PSA being shocked that they only got 4.5s, max, out of beautiful Goudeys and such. The cynic in me thought that PSA knows very well that so much of its business is due to people chasing the lottery-like prices of 7s and above, and to keep those prices lottery-like, they have to keep them "exclusive." So much of the current card market is about status and ego.

campyfan39 · #9 02-23-2021, 08:49 PM

It is so subjective and a money maker. Dealer friend submits a modest amount and was not happy with the results. His friend (who deals for a living and submits in bulk) let him send some along with his order and they got bumps. The exact same card 80% came back higher based on who submitted them! The whole system is crap IMO

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven

That's one of my biggest issues with Grading. I don't understand how a BGS 2 can be a PSA 3 or an SGC 1, and who exactly are these people grading them, what qualifications separate the guys at BGS from the guys at SGC?

I'm still not at the point where I can fully determine if some raw cards are real or fake, so with certain high end purchases, I have to make sure their graded, or if they are raw, are coming from someone that I trust/ is trust worthy. Fortunately there's many trustworthy people here on Net54!

Volod · #10 02-27-2021, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven

...
I'm still not at the point where I can fully determine if some raw cards are real or fake, so with certain high end purchases, I have to make sure their graded, or if they are raw, are coming from someone that I trust/ is trust worthy. Fortunately there's many trustworthy people here on Net54!

I am - and have been for a long while - at the point where, if I can't fully determine if some card is real or fake, using just my own knowledge gained from experience and research, I happily accept it as real without recrimination or regret. This probably means that there may be a high-end card in my collection that actually is fake, but since my cards have sat on shelves for so long neglected and undisturbed, the distinction doesn't concern me very much.

mferronibc · #11 02-23-2021, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Cards in their natural state has been my preference since 1957, when it was mostly the only option

I understand Al, but how much is too much? Is the natural habitat for a card even a soft sleeve and top loader or is plastic plastic? Stack with a rubber band to be truly as intended? Obviously I'm being facetious, I get that to many slabs are chunky and take away from the visible appeal of the card if you're too focused on the label. For me though, as I build my collection it is important to understand and track the value and something to equitably pass on to my kids without too much uncertainty. I have never sold a card in my life and don't plan to but if they choose to do that after I'm gone at least I can know they'll be less likely to get taken advantage of. Different strokes.

SPMIDD · #12 02-23-2021, 08:53 AM

I buy some graded stuff but I mostly prefer cardboard tartare for my PC.

mferronibc · #13 02-23-2021, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scmavl

I've been doing the same over the past six months. Just sent a large order (for me) to PSA with a lot of vintage so we'll see how I did. I've got a '52 Minoso, '58 Mantle, and '60 Yaz RC that I'm hoping will do well. The rest of it will come in expectedly low.

Problem is seems like more and more of raw now are expecting to get comparable prices to what they perceive (or at least advertise) the card would grade without taking on any of the risk that it likely won't or the cost ($65)/time (6-9 months) to actually grade it. Seller's market for sure.

scmavl · #14 02-23-2021, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mferronibc

Problem is seems like more and more of raw now are expecting to get comparable prices to what they perceive (or at least advertise) the card would grade without taking on any of the risk that it likely won't or the cost ($65)/time (6-9 months) to actually grade it. Seller's market for sure.

Agreed. I tend to look for poorly photographed cards on ebay, as lots of people scroll right by a lackluster thumbnail. I've gotten some really good deals that way. Same with cards sold as a lot instead of individually.

mferronibc · #15 02-23-2021, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scmavl

Agreed. I tend to look for poorly photographed cards on ebay, as lots of people scroll right by a lackluster thumbnail. I've gotten some really good deals that way. Same with cards sold as a lot instead of individually.

Great tips. I've actually been trying to focus on sellers that don't have a lot of feedback. This goes against my typical screening but if we're talking <$50 cards I feel like more likely to truly be someone that rediscovered their collection and just looking to cash in as opposed to a true dealer who has already made the "it's not worth grading" calculation and decided to sell raw.

mortimer brewster · #16 02-23-2021, 11:21 AM

I am still finding good buys from Ebay sellers that have outstanding feedback but only occasionally sell cards. You just have to put in the time to search.

I am a set builder and buy often from Greg Morris cards but closing bids are getting a little too rich for my blood.

I purchased a NM 1971 Nolan Ryan a few months ago from a seller who occasionally sells cards. Card in same condition from Morris sold for 3x what I paid.

Just be patient and don't fall into the trap.

scmavl · #17 03-01-2021, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scmavl

Agreed. I tend to look for poorly photographed cards on ebay, as lots of people scroll right by a lackluster thumbnail. I've gotten some really good deals that way.

Normally I wouldn't quote myself, but a card just arrived today that 100% illustrates this. I saw this '52 Berk Ross Jackie on eBay, but it looked like it had been in a house fire. Very dark, not presentable at all. But then I looked at the back pic and noticed a clearer shadow line and realized it was just a terrible photograph. So I made a low offer and he took it, as I'd guess he hadn't had any offers yet.

Here is the card's listing photograph vs in-hand today.

[

bobsbbcards · #18 03-01-2021, 10:39 AM

Two rules for people in the card collecting/selling/investing hobby:

1) Snipe
2) Buy a scanner

Oscar_Stanage · #19 02-28-2021, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mferronibc

Problem is seems like more and more of raw now are expecting to get comparable prices to what they perceive (or at least advertise) the card would grade without taking on any of the risk that it likely won't or the cost ($65)/time (6-9 months) to actually grade it. Seller's market for sure.

I agree with this. For those talking about buying raw at a discount to graded, please PM with which sellers do this, because I have not seen one dealer that does this.

I spent last year buying raw at some of the large reputable Ebay sellers (mostly auctions... thousands), I would say 5-10% of the time I was able to pay a discount to the PSA equivalent. Otherwise the card was closing very close to PSA and sometimes higher (highest listing is NM-MT, so sometimes buyers think they are getting MT and pay a lot more). I definitely got some good deals, but overall the market made me look smart by bailing me out of any overpaying.

if you ask me, you all have it backwards, its buying raw where the buyer gets hurt. Sellers love being able to sell raw cards and not have to go through the cost and hassle of grading. they basically get the PSA-equivalent price. All sellers over-grade. Sure the good ones will be in-line a lot of the time, but they definitely tend to over-estimating rather than under-estimating. Even those that offer 'no questions asked' returns know that many buyers just won't go through the hassle to return a card unless it is egregiously misrepresented. Things like centering, subtle wrinkles and paper loss are generally ignored when the seller applies their 'internal' grading system. it does not matter, because in competitive auctions there are too many bidders who push the card to graded pricing..

Exhibitman · #20 02-28-2021, 10:42 PM

Centering is a non-issue for fraud; you literally can see the centering in any decent scan so there is no basis to bitch about centering. As for bargains, you just have to forage a bit. Also, your data points may be a bit off. Slabbed cards are definitely selling at a premium right now. I've replaced perhaps 20 slabbed 1970s basketball cards lately with raw and except for a few have obtained similar condition cards for a fraction of what the slabbed cards sold for.

Oscar_Stanage · #21 03-01-2021, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Centering is a non-issue for fraud; you literally can see the centering in any decent scan so there is no basis to bitch about centering.

I never used the word 'fraud' and there is no 'bi----ng'. its just the business. Sellers ignore centering when listing their grades. it is what it is. obviously anyone can check that on a scan and decide for him/her self. but many newbies don't necessarily understand how centering impacts grade and value, and it does not take much to move the market. it took me a lot of buying experience to figure out the game.. my point is that these transgressions are purposeful by the selling community, its how they profit. I call it grade arbitrage. I am talking about the big volume online auctioneers, not the local flea market. if you have enough eyeballs on your auction, you can auction off a card that would be EX+ by any standard scale, describe as NM, and it will sell at PSA NM price. to add insult to injury, some of the folks rail against the TPGs in the description! while at the same time create an alternate universe.

bb66 · #22 03-01-2021, 03:46 PM

Hey Wid--I am in total agreement with everything you described. Thanks

Exhibitman · #23 03-01-2021, 07:27 PM

Who pays attention to the seller's grade on a card? I never do. i judge from the scans and ask about any creases. If the card arrives with a wrinkle back it goes as not as described.

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