And it's in, Ortiz has been elected to the Hall

[butchie_t]

Time to move on from this. No amount of postulating from either faction will change the following facts:

Ortiz is in the HOF

Bonds is not in the HOF
Clemens is not in the HOF
Sosa is not in the HOF

Today is a new day, let's focus on who we hate for next years vote. Get an early start as there is plenty of time for it.

Personally I cannot wait until Todd Helton gets voted in. Gonna be a couple of years though. I can wait.......

One thing I believe we all can agree on is this: If a person that is issued a ballot to vote for the HOF and turns in an empty ballot, they should be removed from ever voting again for any further HOF ballots. And frankly if someone cannot muster at least 5 people to vote for, they should just never be able to vote again either. IMHO

[Snapolit1]

Don't know why they even need to keep electing people. At this point just tell the story of baseball, good, bad and ugly, and leave it at that.

The Hall is such an amazing place. A shame that this debate about electing people will never end.

Soon the same debate will continue about guys suspected/charged with domestic abuse or drugs and DWIs or may other things. It's not going away.

Obviously Bonds, Clemens, etc. are the fall guys for an era everyone knew was taking place and looked the other way.

[Frank A]

I love it. All the criers on here rooting for the roid boys. I hope they never get in, and all their records should be trashed. Some of you guys must have hundreds of their rookie cards. Tough shit.

[npa589]

The only player I can't stand of the three is Clemens. I was privileged to have the opportunity to watch Bonds and Ortiz play. Even as a miserable 2004 Cubs fan, I'll never forget watching the 2004 Red Sox/Yankees series in my University of Miami dorm room and the moments provided by how clutch Ortiz was - and those great Joe Buck/McCarver calls.

That being said - at Ortiz's peak, at the pinnacle of his talent and ability, he was still no more than half of the ballplayer that Bonds was at Bonds' lowest ability level during Bonds' career. Before simply disregarding that, think it through. At no point was Ortiz ever even in the same realm as Bonds. Let's say Ortiz didn't do steroids, which is hilarious to believe (and I don't really blame them, can't say I wouldn't do the same thing given choice between meandering amidst a sea of steroid users, or leveling my own playing field - given that MLB didn't care at all), then STILL at no point was Ortiz anywhere near the ballplayer that Bonds was prior to his steroid use.

It's just pathetic, and clearly points to the media's hatred towards Bonds - who always hated them.

[darwinbulldog]

Popularity contest. I'll continue collecting cards of the best players, of which Hall membership is not a particularly accurate indicator.

[G1911]

Hell, many of the players being punished by the hall for steroids weren't even breaking any rule at all, test or no test. Andro wasn't banned when McGwire became known to be a user, and yet he, an obviously more deserving candidate than Ortiz, was ignored in the voting.

Ignoring Ortiz' test because it is known from a leak and the appeal and re-test processes wasn't in place (which seems to be what Manfred is actually referring to), while continuing to punish literally every other known user, including players who 1) didn't test positive at all and/or 2) were not even breaking the rules and/or 3) also tested positive in 2003 before the institution of the current procedures takes some truly incredible mental gymnastics to justify the obvious: Ortiz is held to a completely different standard from every other player. Reason should tell this is absurd.

[MINES_MINT]

The excuses being made on behalf of Ortiz and others such as Bonds and Clemens are just pathetic in my opinion. As fans and historians of baseball we should have integrity and respect for the game and expect the same from the players. Unfortunately, based on some of the responses I have read online, I am seriously beginning to question the character of the average baseball fan in modern culture.

When Ortiz first spoke publicly about his positive test, his response was "my results leaked because so many Yankees tested positive". Why wasn't his initial reaction to the article to deny that he had ever used PEDs in the first place? No defamation suit? No libel? In my opinion that initial reaction shows guilt, and no amount of walking it back will change that.

Manfred cosigning Ortiz for the Hall is just another blemish to his already questionable tenure as commissioner, and if you don't see the spin he put on this whole situation I'm guessing you've never hit a curve ball.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by MINES_MINT

The excuses being made on behalf of Ortiz and others such as Bonds and Clemens are just pathetic in my opinion. As fans and historians of baseball we should have integrity and respect for the game and expect the same from the players. Unfortunately, based on some of the responses I have read online, I am seriously beginning to question the character of the average baseball fan in modern culture.

When Ortiz first spoke publicly about his positive test, his response was "my results leaked because so many Yankees tested positive". Why wasn't his initial reaction to the article to deny that he had ever used PEDs in the first place? No defamation suit? No libel? In my opinion that initial reaction shows guilt, and no amount of walking it back will change that.

Manfred cosigning Ortiz for the Hall is just another blemish to his already questionable tenure as commissioner, and if you don't see the spin he put on this whole situation I'm guessing you've never hit a curve ball.

How does Manfred have a choice?

[GeoPoto]

Originally Posted by MINES_MINT

Manfred cosigning Ortiz for the Hall is just another blemish to his already questionable tenure as commissioner, and if you don't see the spin he put on this whole situation I'm guessing you've never hit a curve ball.

So, the world you wish to live in is one where a player, gullible enough to accept MLB's (Manfred's) word that a test would be confidential, have no consequences and, therefore, would skip over due-process, would end up "convicted" of a "failed test" and publicly shamed out of consideration for the Hall of Fame. Ortiz and the other players who were "tricked" into agreeing to be tested, participated in a key step toward getting the player's union to support driving steroids out of baseball (for the most part, at least). It seems to me you could replace "gullible" with "courageous" in my first sentence above.

[lowpopper]

Barry Bonds is king...HOF or not.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

So, the world you wish to live in is one where a player, gullible enough to accept MLB's (Manfred's) word that a test would be confidential, have no consequences and, therefore, would skip over due-process, would end up "convicted" of a "failed test" and publicly shamed out of consideration for the Hall of Fame. Ortiz and the other players who were "tricked" into agreeing to be tested, participated in a key step toward getting the player's union to support driving steroids out of baseball (for the most part, at least). It seems to me you could replace "gullible" with "courageous" in my first sentence above.

Ortiz failed a test. Nothing in your statement changes that fact.

[MINES_MINT]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

So, the world you wish to live in is one where a player, gullible enough to accept MLB's (Manfred's) word that a test would be confidential, have no consequences and, therefore, would skip over due-process, would end up "convicted" of a "failed test" and publicly shamed out of consideration for the Hall of Fame. Ortiz and the other players who were "tricked" into agreeing to be tested, participated in a key step toward getting the player's union to support driving steroids out of baseball (for the most part, at least). It seems to me you could replace "gullible" with "courageous" in my first sentence above.

So in "the world you wish to live in" Ortiz is the victim, got it.

How about a world where people are held accountable for their choices and accept the consequences of their actions?

Ortiz cheated. Period.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by MINES_MINT

The excuses being made on behalf of Ortiz and others such as Bonds and Clemens are just pathetic in my opinion. As fans and historians of baseball we should have integrity and respect for the game and expect the same from the players. Unfortunately, based on some of the responses I have read online, I am seriously beginning to question the character of the average baseball fan in modern culture.

When Ortiz first spoke publicly about his positive test, his response was "my results leaked because so many Yankees tested positive". Why wasn't his initial reaction to the article to deny that he had ever used PEDs in the first place? No defamation suit? No libel? In my opinion that initial reaction shows guilt, and no amount of walking it back will change that.

Manfred cosigning Ortiz for the Hall is just another blemish to his already questionable tenure as commissioner, and if you don't see the spin he put on this whole situation I'm guessing you've never hit a curve ball.

If integrity and respect for the game is your standard, then that has to apply to all involved.

A leak from un-named attorneys, corroborated by nothing.

I'm not sure about the other players, but Ortiz was never informed about a positive test, something you'd think they'd want to do.

Along with not being told, they couldn't tell him what he'd tested positive for. Which is in many ways the single most important piece of information. I can see not making it public, but not informing the player?

If they had the info, why not also release what each player tested positive for? To this day that has never happened. Some things that could be tested for are present in some pretty mundane stuff. Many over the counter supplements, at least one cyclist got in trouble over a poppy seed bagel....
So release that information.

The government got the info, and at least for Bonds the actual sample. (Note, only one sample, when every serious testing program takes two.)
The 2003 program didn't find anything, but the government testing sure did.

So right off, either the testing was for the wrong things, or was poorly done.


Having integrity and respect for the game would not be anonymously "releasing" information that was supposed to be confidential, and that wasn't properly done, making it unreliable.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'm not sure about the other players, but Ortiz was never informed about a positive test, something you'd think they'd want to do.

That's false. Ortiz himself has confirmed that he failed a test.

[FourStrikes]

Originally Posted by MINES_MINT

The excuses being made on behalf of Ortiz and others such as Bonds and Clemens are just pathetic in my opinion. As fans and historians of baseball we should have integrity and respect for the game and expect the same from the players. Unfortunately, based on some of the responses I have read online, I am seriously beginning to question the character of the average baseball fan in modern culture.

When Ortiz first spoke publicly about his positive test, his response was "my results leaked because so many Yankees tested positive". Why wasn't his initial reaction to the article to deny that he had ever used PEDs in the first place? No defamation suit? No libel? In my opinion that initial reaction shows guilt, and no amount of walking it back will change that.

Manfred cosigning Ortiz for the Hall is just another blemish to his already questionable tenure as commissioner, and if you don't see the spin he put on this whole situation I'm guessing you've never hit a curve ball.

yup.

[lowpopper]

[lowpopper]

HOF election process is the new Miss America pageant

[Gnep31]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I'm disappointed in baseball. I'm sure Ortiz is a nice guy, but they applied a different set of standards to “Big Papi” since he is an MLB studio analyst for FOX Sports. He contributes to the network's regular season, All-Star Game and MLB Postseason coverage and I'm sure that helped him get in the hall.

A-Rod is also an analyst but he is universally disliked. I think in part because he is just weird, but also because he blatantly lied for years about his doping. People like Big Papi.

Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod - All cheated and have very disagreeable personalities which, right or wrong, is a factor in voters minds.

[etsmith]

Sammy Sosa should definitely not get in, without the steroid use he was an average player at best.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by etsmith

Sammy Sosa should definitely not get in, without the steroid use he was an average player at best.

His career OPS+ is surprisingly low.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by G1911

His career OPS+ is surprisingly low.

Why should that matter? His SLG is 45th all time (also 31st in RBIs). That is better than Mel Ott, Mike Schmidt and a bunch of other power hitting HOFers. Sosa didn't walk a lot. I don't understand the obsession with middle of the lineup guys allowing themselves to get pitched around so players who aren't as good have to come up with big hits. Your middle of the lineup guys are the ones who should be driving in runs. Sosa shouldn't be in because he took steroids, not because he didn't allow himself to be pitched around.

[darwinbulldog]

Sosa shouldn't be in because he wasn't an especially good baseball player. Being the 19th best rightfielder is a very solid accomplishment, but it doesn't qualify one for the Hall.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by rats60

Why should that matter? His SLG is 45th all time (also 31st in RBIs). That is better than Mel Ott, Mike Schmidt and a bunch of other power hitting HOFers. Sosa didn't walk a lot. I don't understand the obsession with middle of the lineup guys allowing themselves to get pitched around so players who aren't as good have to come up with big hits. Your middle of the lineup guys are the ones who should be driving in runs. Sosa shouldn't be in because he took steroids, not because he didn't allow himself to be pitched around.

100% agree with this.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by rats60

Why should that matter? His SLG is 45th all time (also 31st in RBIs). That is better than Mel Ott, Mike Schmidt and a bunch of other power hitting HOFers. Sosa didn't walk a lot. I don't understand the obsession with middle of the lineup guys allowing themselves to get pitched around so players who aren't as good have to come up with big hits. Your middle of the lineup guys are the ones who should be driving in runs. Sosa shouldn't be in because he took steroids, not because he didn't allow himself to be pitched around.

I don’t think I follow the logic of the objection to me commenting on OPS+. Why would it not be relevant or matter? OPS is the combination of slugging and on base. Slugging is the more heavily weighted component of the two. If you are going to rely on slugging, mustn’t you then believe that OPS has some value? You do not believe getting on base is worth anything and thus OPS is junk?

OPS+ pits OPS in context of time and place. I would think the reason to do that is evident.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

Time to move on from this. No amount of postulating from either faction will change the following facts:

Ortiz is in the HOF

Bonds is not in the HOF
Clemens is not in the HOF
Sosa is not in the HOF

Today is a new day, let's focus on who we hate for next years vote. Get an early start as there is plenty of time for it.

Personally I cannot wait until Todd Helton gets voted in. Gonna be a couple of years though. I can wait.......

One thing I believe we all can agree on is this: If a person that is issued a ballot to vote for the HOF and turns in an empty ballot, they should be removed from ever voting again for any further HOF ballots. And frankly if someone cannot muster at least 5 people to vote for, they should just never be able to vote again either. IMHO

If we follow this logic, that we should not discuss things that have happened in the past (including yesterday) because the past cannot be changed, then there would be almost nothing to talk about on a board about old items and baseball history.

[GasHouseGang]

I'm not happy with the Baseball HOF but at least they have a process. Don't even get me started on the Rock 'n' Roll HOF!

[FourStrikes]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I'm not happy with the Baseball HOF but at least they have a process. Don't even get me started on the Rock 'n' Roll HOF!

+++++