Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Greg

1..... You have to realize that back in 1985, I was one of the dealers at the Willow Grove Show to whom this card was offered to. Upon my close examination, I passed on it.
I was told that it was originally discovered on an uncut sheet in Long Island, NY. I cannot recall who told me of this that weekend in 1985. My research indicating Mr. Knapp
of ALC having a residence in that part of Long Island provided a certain amount of credibility to story.
Years later, the "source" of this Wagner card was said to be Florida. And that claim sounded plausible, since many New Yorkers are "snow birds" during the Winter.

2...... I simply asked Pat if he would elaborate on the difference between the Plank card's back with respect to the Wagner card's back).

Do you have a "problem" with this question ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

1. You said in 46 and reiterated in 51, "My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were on was first discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County)." Pat cited a source, reported in The Card, that contains the familiar Florida source, of it being found at a flea market there. So I asked what is the evidence for this counter claim. I have no idea what the actual truth is, but it seems logical that, when we have conflicting evidence, we would look at all of that evidence to see where it leads. We have one side of it sourced. It sounds like the evidence against this is that you heard an anonymous person of unknown connection to the origin say otherwise at a show?

2. Obviously I have no problem with asking Pat on the differences of it's reverse(s) with Wagner.

[Bigdaddy]

So if the sheet was 'discovered' at a flea market in FL, many (70?) years after it was printed, what is the history of the sheet before the flea market? If it was indeed printed in NYC, like Ted says, could it not have lived on Long Island for many, many years before making it's way to Florida?

It seems entirely possible that both stories are correct, just shifted in time from each other.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

So if the sheet was 'discovered' at a flea market in FL, many (70?) years after it was printed, what is the history of the sheet before the flea market? If it was indeed printed in NYC, like Ted says, could it not have lived on Long Island for many, many years before making it's way to Florida?

It seems entirely possible that both stories are correct, just shifted in time from each other.

I think Ted is referring not to where it was printed but where it was "discovered" in the sense of becoming known to the hobby.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

So if the sheet was 'discovered' at a flea market in FL, many (70?) years after it was printed, what is the history of the sheet before the flea market? If it was indeed printed in NYC, like Ted says, could it not have lived on Long Island for many, many years before making it's way to Florida?

It seems entirely possible that both stories are correct, just shifted in time from each other.

The discussion wasn't about the sheet originating in NY it most likely did, the discussion was did the card originate from a sheet discovered in Florida.

[G1911]

Where it was printed was separate, and it probably was the NY area, but I think we do not know where exactly and this should not be stated as a fact. The T card printing was done in multiple locations, by multiple companies (which may or may not have been shadow subsidiaries and 1 real company; American Lithography), that much we do know for certain. The only cards where we know where they were printed are the ones in the Fullgraff ledger/notebook, the full contents of which are not public. Those cards in those sets weren’t all necessarily printed at that facility. The ATC ledger doesn’t give any printing locations, and I’ve never seen actual evidence that a particular set outside of the Fullgraff ledger/book was produced at a particular facility. I suspect long running sets with massive runs may have spanned multiple facilities. Such evidence may exist and I simply am not privy to it.

The discovery of the sheet is the issue in question. We have, one one hand, the reported interviews by O’Keeffe in his book. On the other, we appear to have a report that an unknown person, with unknown connection to the sheet, said something different at a show in 1985 to a member. I’d love to know if there is any other evidence; this sheet’s destruction ruined a fair bit of history that might have been able to tell us a lot about many T cards, beyond T206 only.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The story in The Card is from multiple hearsay sources, sometimes multiple levels, no? Not terribly reliable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is what I was thinking of. This story says Ray refused to say where he got the Wagner. Nothing about a father in Florida.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_19.html

[Peter_Spaeth]

From Smithsonian Magazine, for what it's worth.

In 1986, a new specimen of the card—in better condition than any other—emerged out of nowhere, it seemed. An owner of a Long Island sports memorabilia store announced that a man named Alan Ray was selling his 1909 T206 Wagner for $25,000. Ray would not say where he acquired the card, to this day keeping mum about what the card was up to between 1909 and 1986.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is what I was thinking of. This story says Ray refused to say where he got the Wagner. Nothing about a father in Florida.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_19.html

I have not paid much attention to the story over the years. I just read this link, and did watch the Probstein Twitter interview, or IG, or whatever was linked to the board last year.

What do we know about the 1 other Piedmont backed card? Why do serious collectors not consider it a reprint?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The story in The Card is from multiple hearsay sources, sometimes multiple levels, no? Not terribly reliable.

I would not call The Card terribly reliable - O’Keeffe seems to believe whatever his interview subjects said and done little genuine inquiry. I do believe he accurately reported what people said to him, but it is hardly a good book objectively.

I do think this hearsay, from people at least connected to the origin as I recall it, does obviously beat a single memory of an unknown person saying something else at a show once to someone. That’s a lower level of hearsay.

The whole point of asking for evidence is that I cannot find much actual material to go on, just a lot of myths, conflicting stories, and accounts with little to back them. I don’t have any opinion on where it originated. This is why I was asking for the “research”. There is a lot that could be learned from a partial T206 sheet, if one ever existed (yes, I am aware sheets existed when they were printed in 1909-1911, before someone steps in to correct me with the blindingly obvious).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I would not call The Card terribly reliable - O’Keeffe seems to believe whatever his interview subjects said and done little genuine inquiry. I do believe he accurately reported what people said to him, but it is hardly a good book objectively.

I do think this hearsay, from people at least connected to the origin as I recall it, does obviously beat a single memory of an unknown person saying something else at a show once to someone. That’s a lower level of hearsay.

The whole point of asking for evidence is that I cannot find much actual material to go on, just a lot of myths, conflicting stories, and accounts with little to back them. I don’t have any opinion on where it originated. This is why I was asking for the “research”. There is a lot that could be learned from a partial T206 sheet, if one ever existed (yes, I am aware sheets existed when they were printed in 1909-1911, before someone steps in to correct me with the blindingly obvious).

Maybe Ted can fill in the gaps, his story has the advantage over the others of being contemporaneous with the event. But at this point I don't think we have much of a clue. It is interesting how at least two stories, although likely feeding off the same source, say Ray refused to say where he got the card. That makes no sense if Ray had already told Sevchuk the card had come from Ray's father.