Roberto Clemente Signature "Bob"

G1911 · #1 05-08-2023, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IF Clemente hadn't objected to Bob, why did Topps change his cards back to Roberto in 1970?

Maybe because he was also and more commonly known by Roberto.

Any claim to fact should have an evidentiary basis, whether I like it or not. If there is no evidentiary basis, it is just a myth people have created. There�s not a separate rule set for claims I like or dislike. Maybe there is a real source for this claim, but I�ve never seen one and nobody ever provides one. Thus I am skeptical of the claim, as one should be of any claim to fact they hear from anyone about anything for which no evidence surfaces. In this particular instance of the general �Bob� legend, the source even contradicts the story being told and unequivocally does not say what the article claims. There are many stories of history told that I like; but it doesn�t make them so.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 05-08-2023, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Maybe because he was also and more commonly known by Roberto.

Any claim to fact should have an evidentiary basis, whether I like it or not. If there is no evidentiary basis, it is just a myth people have created. There�s not a separate rule set for claims I like or dislike. Maybe there is a real source for this claim, but I�ve never seen one and nobody ever provides one. Thus I am skeptical of the claim, as one should be of any claim to fact they hear from anyone about anything for which no evidence surfaces. In this particular instance of the general �Bob� legend, the source even contradicts the story being told and unequivocally does not say what the article claims. There are many stories of history told that I like; but it doesn�t make them so.

Of course a primary source would be better, but I am betting there are all sorts of things we accept as received wisdom for which there are no primary sources.

G1911 · #3 05-08-2023, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course a primary source would be better, but I am betting there are all sorts of things we accept as received wisdom for which there are no primary sources.

Yes people believe many myths. That doesn�t make it correct, or true or wise. If we choose to believe myths we like just because we like them, without evidence, we are not rational people.

1) We have, for the narrative: unsourced claims of current writers and internet boards, and that Topps called Clemente Bob on only some, instead of all, of his Topps cards.

2) We have, against: that he sometimes signed as Bob and primary sources claims that at least some of his friends called him Bobby and that there is apparently no evidence he objected (if it exists, it can be posted and terminate the debate instantly).

To believe 1 over 2, with the evidentiary body provided, demands throwing reason away to select what one would like to select anyways.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 05-08-2023, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes people believe many myths. That doesn�t make it correct, or true or wise. If we choose to believe myths we like just because we like them, without evidence, we are not rational people.

1) We have, for the narrative: unsourced claims of current writers and internet boards, and that Topps called Clemente Bob on only some, instead of all, of his Topps cards.

2) We have, against: that he sometimes signed as Bob and primary sources claims that at least some of his friends called him Bobby and that there is apparently no evidence he objected (if it exists, it can be posted and terminate the debate instantly).

To believe 1 over 2, with the evidentiary body provided, demands throwing reason away to select what one would like to select anyways.

It would be nice to know where the Hall of Fame writer got his facts.

G1911 · #5 05-08-2023, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It would be nice to know where the Hall of Fame writer got his facts.

That is how we should feel about any and all claims to fact, and the importance of citing one�s sources (and then checking said sources; many times it turns out the document cited does not say what the writer claims it says, as in the SABR case) and prioritizing evidence over feeling.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 05-08-2023, 04:44 PM

It's interesting that in 1963 Fleer called him Roberto. Also 1962 and 1963 Post Cereal. I think too all the Kahn's issues. Supports, somewhat, the Topps were assholes about it theory.

JollyElm · #7 05-08-2023, 05:00 PM

This 'Bob' talk is from a while back, post #1239 in the �365 Days of Roberto Clemente� thread, but it fits in here.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...249493&page=16

It references this video (which is very cool!):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFEH5nxSoKc
.................................................. .................................................. .......

There was something, perhaps unnoticed by most, rather interesting in the video I posted, and I forgot to mention it. The interviewer repeatedly (respectfully) addresses Clemente as Roberto. And when he mentions how the press skipped over his 3,000th hit, he says something to the effect of, "Roberto Clemente only got a line or two in the magazine," etc. But at times when they're chatting, he unhesitatingly calls him "Bobby." They were clearly friends, or friendly towards each other. The demeanor between the two, the body language, etc., shows warmth, if not affection. These days (in hindsight), people love to bring up how 'racist' it was that he was called 'Bob' on many of his baseball cards (those same people just ignore the fact that a gazillion other players of all colors named Robert or William were called 'Bob' or 'Bill' on their cards, as that's clearly the accepted American shorthand for those names.) But if the people around him were using 'Bobby' when they conversed, then you have to wonder if that specifically ever really was as big an issue as some would have you believe.

(Please, for the love of God, no one start a friggin' argument about this. I'm just noting something that has puzzled me the last couple of years since I first heard that particular claim. While growing up, not once did I ever hear that 'Bob' Clemente was a racist thing.)

On a side note, I did a quick ebay search for "1964 Topps Bob" and came up with this long list of other (baseball) players who had the name 'Bob' or 'Bobby' on their cards that year. Surely, some of these 33 players went by Robert (or some other name) in their everyday lives, right??

Bob Allen
Bob Allison
Bob Aspromonte
Bob Bailey
Bobby Bolin
Bob Bruce
Bob Buhl
Bob Chance
Bob Duliba
Bob Friend
Bob Gibson
Bob Heffner
Bob Hendley
Bob Johnson
Bob Kennedy
Bobby Knoop
Bob Lee
Bob Lillis
Bob Meyer
Bob Miller
Bob Perry
Bob Priddy
Bob Purkey
Bob Rodgers
Bob Sadowski
Bob Saverine
Bob Shaw
Bob Skinner
Bob Taylor
Bob Tiefenauer
Bob Tillman
Bob Uecker
Bob Veale

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