2024 Baseball Hall of Fame Tracker

[Seven]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think that list is really representative of reality though. Bill Dickey caught over 1700 games. Joe Mauer caught less than 1,000. Berra won 3 MVPs. There is so much more separating them from Mauer than JAWS.

I fully agree, that's why I said the raw numbers aren't everything, and pointed out that there's been a recent shift with how media views catchers. I don't think Mauer gets into the Hall of Fame if this was 30 years ago. But newer voters value his peak of hitting more than his longevity.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Seven

I fully agree, that's why I said the raw numbers aren't everything, and pointed out that there's been a recent shift with how media views catchers. I don't think Mauer gets into the Hall of Fame if this was 30 years ago. But newer voters value his peak of hitting more than his longevity.

I enjoy reading Jay Jaffe's write-ups about the Hall of Fame candidates every year in which he relies on his JAWS scores as part of his decision for how he casts his ballot. However, he does state that it's not the only criteria he uses.

It will be interesting to see the voting for Yadier Molina when he is first eligible. His JAWS score of 35.5 puts him 22nd for catchers while his WAR of 42.3 puts him 19th. Both are below the average scores for catchers already in the Hall of Fame. The averages are 44.2 JAWS and 53.6 WAR.

However, many people seem to think that Molina will be a certain 1st ballot Hall of Famer when he's eligible. For comparison, as you previously indicated, Mauer is 7th in JAWS (and 9th in WAR) while Buster Posey is 14th in JAWS (40.7) and 16th in WAR (44.8) for catchers. Posey and Molina are both below the average Hall of Fame catcher for these values while Mauer is above the average.

[The Detroit Collector]

I dont disagree Mauer should get in. Just not first ballot. I've posted this before but look at the stats between him and Piazza. Almost identical. Yet it took Piazza 4 times to get in.

[packs]

I don't know that you can really talk about Mauer as a catcher the same way you can talk about Posey or Molina.

Mauer appeared in 921 games as catcher but also 603 games as a first baseman. Compare that to Posey who appeared as a catcher in 1,093 games and only 229 at first base.

I think Mauer had essentially two careers, one as the premier catcher in the American League and another as a league average first baseman.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't know that you can really talk about Mauer as a catcher the same way you can talk about Posey or Molina.

Mauer appeared in 921 games as catcher but also 603 games as a first baseman. Compare that to Posey who appeared as a catcher in 1,093 games and only 229 at first base.

I think Mauer had essentially two careers, one as the premier catcher in the American League and another as a league average first baseman.

Not sure I understand the logic. Posey played about one season more at catcher than Mauer, yet we can't compare them as catchers?

[packs]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Not sure I understand the logic. Posey played about one season more at catcher than Mauer, yet we can't compare them as catchers?

Well, Posey was predominantly a catcher and I don't think it can be said that he had much of a career as a first baseman. But you can definitely talk about Mauer's second career as one.

Doesn't that make them different?

If it helps understand the point, Mauer played 15 seasons but from 2014 to 2018 he appeared as a catcher in 1 game.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by packs

Well, Posey was predominantly a catcher and I don't think it can be said that he had much of a career as a first baseman. But you can definitely talk about Mauer's second career as one.

Doesn't that make them different?

Mauer certainly played more games at first than Posey and the other catchers he's being compared to, but it's his years playing catcher that are going to (probably) get him into the Hall of Fame this year. His last 5 years playing first base did not do much to add to the argument he should be in the Hall of Fame other than help increase his career totals.

[packs]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Mauer certainly played more games at first than Posey and the other catchers he's being compared to, but it's his years playing catcher that are going to (probably) get him into the Hall of Fame this year. His last 5 years playing first base did not do much to add to the argument he should be in the Hall of Fame other than help increase his career totals.

I don't disagree. He was average at best in his first baseman role. But that was still a third of his career.

Posey did not play a third of his career out of the position and neither did Molina, Piazza or most other catchers.

If Mauer had retired at 30 after his time as a catcher had come to an end, would he have a stronger or weaker case for the HOF? I think his counting stats still help him. He'd have 105 home runs, just over 600 RBIs and just over 1,400 hits if he hadn't played those last 5 years as a first baseman and DH.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't know that you can really talk about Mauer as a catcher the same way you can talk about Posey or Molina.

Mauer appeared in 921 games as catcher but also 603 games as a first baseman. Compare that to Posey who appeared as a catcher in 1,093 games and only 229 at first base.

I think Mauer had essentially two careers, one as the premier catcher in the American League and another as a league average first baseman.

Always hate when I have to agree with Packs on a baseball matter

To further his comparison Piazza caught 1629 of the 1793 career games he started