Uncut Proof sheet c. 1913 with Cobb and Joe Jackson in May '24 Hunt Auctions

[JustinD]

I feel much like going to church, this piece takes a little faith and belief on the side of the buyer. I wasn’t a fan when it popped up years ago and I still wouldn’t want to invest hopes and good wishes into my collection. It just seems too simplistic for the purported time period for quality.

That said, these items are so difficult sometimes as they have as much going for them as against them in an argument, so it falls on the belief of the buyer. If they are happy with the purchase then more power to them. It’s just not my bag.

[FrankWakefield]

I shake my head... If offered to me for $300 including premium, I'd not buy that.

The seller, the auction house, and the buyer all thought that sheet is genuine and worth exponentially more than what I think. And many of you feel the same. But a few of you have doubts.

It reminds me of that odd Goudey card from years ago, that everyone was praising and admiring as a new find. I posted doubts about the card. And a handful of folks here then gradually posted similar concerns (folks with a right smart of card sense and experience, more than me). And gradually this board's consideration was that that Goudey card wasn't genuine.

With this "sheet," I kinda hope that the sheet goes nowhere for several years, and that eventually a few more are found, some with sufficient provenance that the hobby is satisfied the sheets are genuine. I'm just not there.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

With this "sheet," I kinda hope that the sheet goes nowhere for several years, and that eventually a few more are found, some with sufficient provenance that the hobby is satisfied the sheets are genuine. I'm just not there.

That sounds similar to the Dog Food card set including Mantle. Originally only 1 was known for like a decade, but there was a period news article/ad about the set, then in the past 5 years, like 4-5 of each card were located in different locations with different backstories. The grading companies now authenticate that set.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=dog+food

[Schlesinj]

Originally Posted by swarmee

That sounds similar to the Dog Food card set including Mantle. Originally only 1 was known for like a decade, but there was a period news article/ad about the set, then in the past 5 years, like 4-5 of each card were located in different locations with different backstories. The grading companies now authenticate that set.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=dog+food

Also from Pennsylvania!

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Schlesinj

Also from Pennsylvania!

Exactly except this uncut sheet came out of Brooklyn 40 years ago. Was offered for sale both time out of PA, however.

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by JustinD

It just seems too simplistic for the purported time period for quality.

Yeah, its not artistically sophisticated like D304 (1911-1914).

It could be that some of the reasons people don't like it are why it was never produced. Many of these crude(ish) period sets that came with different advertising backs (E92,E101,E102, E104/D359 Etc) probably started out as a printing company trying to sell time on their machines.
They send out sales people with prototypes or samples and see if you can get businesses to either buy the cards you created with just blank backs or you can add their business name for a price. Thats the formula that Felix Mendelsohn (sp?) used for all the 1916-1917 sets at least. Maybe this one never got off the cutting room floor but someone kept the prototype sample.
It could also explain why there are stars included in the player selection, easier to sell to a potential customer? Might be easier to find source photo's of stars as well...just spitballing ideas here instead of the easy "Nah, doesn't look right to me" parroting.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

Yeah, its not artistically sophisticated like D304 (1911-1914).

It could be that some of the reasons people don't like it are why it was never produced. Many of these crude(ish) period sets that came with different advertising backs (E92,E101,E102, E104/D359 Etc) probably started out as a printing company trying to sell time on their machines.
They send out sales people with prototypes or samples and see if you can get businesses to either buy the cards you created with just blank backs or you can add their business name for a price. Thats the formula that Felix Mendelsohn (sp?) used for all the 1916-1917 sets at least. Maybe this one never got off the cutting room floor but someone kept the prototype sample.
It could also explain why there are stars included in the player selection, easier to sell to a potential customer? Might be easier to find source photo's of stars as well...just spitballing ideas here instead of the easy "Nah, doesn't look right to me" parroting.

Brunners may have been ugly, but still had a more layered print process than this.i also did not say it wasn’t real, I said I would not be comfortable on faith and no supporting evidence as to period. Did you read it?

Are you personally involved with this item? With 400 posts in 14 years and 6 just on this thread it’s a little odd.

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Brunners may have been ugly, but still had a more layered print process than this.i also did not say it wasn’t real, I said I would not be comfortable on faith and no supporting evidence as to period. Did you read it?

Are you personally involved with this item? With 400 posts in 14 years and 6 just on this thread it’s a little odd.

No Justin, I'm not personally involved. I'm just tired of the usual "one take" posts that happen here too often so I thought I'd put some effort into this one. Yes, I had to read the post in order to pull one line out of it that helped me make fun of D304's. Then I left a space to seperate my thought and continued with my effort to discuss this item I find interesting.

(space for seperate thought)

Its funny that someone would have to be "involved with the item" to take interest in it. I'm reminded why I prefer lurking most of the time, so I'll just stick to that from now on...and I've been here for 21 years now, there was a site move in 2009 that changed the dates in everyones bio pages at the time.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

No Justin, I'm not personally involved. I'm just tired of the usual "one take" posts that happen here too often so I thought I'd put some effort into this one. Yes, I had to read the post in order to pull one line out of it that helped me make fun of D304's. Then I left a space to seperate my thought and continued with my effort to discuss this item I find interesting.

(space for seperate thought)

Its funny that someone would have to be "involved with the item" to take interest in it. I'm reminded why I prefer lurking most of the time, so I'll just stick to that from now on.

I think your idea that the uncut sheet was potentially created by a printer to drum up business is very interesting, and sounds plausible to me. Yes, perhaps no one took the bait as they didn’t find it appealing enough to try to sell. Thanks for posting your thoughts on the subject.

[packs]

I still think the biggest issue with this piece is whether or not these were baseball cards in the first place. As suggested, I think the idea that these were cards contributed to the perceived value of it. But what if these weren't cards at all? What makes them cards in their present state?

For example, I find it problematic that these baseball cards don't have team identifiers on them. Pretty unusual for a baseball card of the time, isn't it? Can anyone think of another contemporary set that didn't include team names?

Even the low-fi candy sets like Baseball Bats included team names with the images.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by packs

I still think the biggest issue with this piece is whether or not these were baseball cards in the first place. As suggested, I think the idea that these were cards contributed to the perceived value of it. But what if these weren't cards at all? What makes them cards in their present state?

For example, I find it problematic that these baseball cards don't have team identifiers on them. Pretty unusual for a baseball card of the time, isn't it? Can anyone think of another contemporary set that didn't include team names?

T227, T4, The orange borders,
Several sets in the 1920's.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

No Justin, I'm not personally involved. I'm just tired of the usual "one take" posts that happen here too often so I thought I'd put some effort into this one. Yes, I had to read the post in order to pull one line out of it that helped me make fun of D304's. Then I left a space to seperate my thought and continued with my effort to discuss this item I find interesting.

(space for seperate thought)

Its funny that someone would have to be "involved with the item" to take interest in it. I'm reminded why I prefer lurking most of the time, so I'll just stick to that from now on...and I've been here for 21 years now, there was a site move in 2009 that changed the dates in everyones bio pages at the time.

My apologies if you took offense, I thought it a valid inquiry with some of the activities on the board in the past week. If you have seen my posts. I would think the one thing I do not do is "parrot" as I try to give honest thoughts and opinions. I can assure you that they have often not agreed with the crowd. I seem to have read too much into that phrasing.

Yes, mine has the same date of 2009 for the change as well, so apologies for underestimating while playing it safe.

If it is a contrary opinion then please have at it as constructive talk is important. I just read your reply as a subtle jab and did not see the reasoning as it was a personal opinion the same as yours and not directed at you at all.

I readily stated it could or could be, but I just felt that a 30k commitment to this being a rare unissued baseball set more than a possible salesman sample or printers proof was not in my personal window. I think that opinion was fair.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

No Justin, I'm not personally involved. I'm just tired of the usual "one take" posts that happen here too often so I thought I'd put some effort into this one. Yes, I had to read the post in order to pull one line out of it that helped me make fun of D304's. Then I left a space to seperate my thought and continued with my effort to discuss this item I find interesting.

(space for seperate thought)

Its funny that someone would have to be "involved with the item" to take interest in it. I'm reminded why I prefer lurking most of the time, so I'll just stick to that from now on...and I've been here for 21 years now, there was a site move in 2009 that changed the dates in everyones bio pages at the time.

Yeah...I do find it sad that even when it comes to cards it seems that humans cannot have differing opinions without it being contentious. Used to be just over religions and politics.

I think the sheet is fascinating. Love hobby mysteries and love to float ideas and theories. Should not lead to animosity though.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

A thought I just had, it's a TCMA/Renata Galasso All Time set that never got released. Not necessarily from one of those two, but paper experts opinions notwithstanding I could easily see it being an "indy" 1960's or 70's piece that didn't have MLB permission so they left off trademarked info.

[G1911]

I think it would be fairly easy to determine general period it comes from with the sheet in hand. I don’t see anything that makes me doubt 1910’s from the scan but these things are always much easier in hand and give much more detail that way. Has anyone here actually handled the sheet? If it’s been known within the hobby since the 90’s then a fair number have probably encountered it.


While I am not certain that it is period I am more questioning whether these are even cards at all. It’s cool either way, but the auctioneer has made a ton of leaps (there’s no evidence this is a Cracker Jack proof, etc.) to try and pump it.