Memory Lane sold cards they didn't have per SCD

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Mark17

People and museums with rare works of art regularly carry insurance. If a dollar value can be determined for something unique, like van Gogh's The Starry Night, a value can be determined for a Cracker Jack Matty.

Again, the notion the auction listings needed to run to determine value is ridiculous. This is a very rare instance - meaning, values are almost always determined for insurance purposes in other, conventional ways.

Justifying the deception of bidders simply because you want to find out what they would pay is not, IMO, ethical. As another poster said, if somebody on this forum wanted to know what his card was worth and ran a phantom auction to find out, would that be condoned?

What part of "they were working with authorities, the insurance company, counsel, and other hobby veterans to determine the best route" do you not understand? There is no doubt in my mind those were the folks helping ML make their decisions. And at the end of the day it was JP's call.
And imo, he did exactly what they should have done.

As far as getting the cards there; they got there. That wasn't a problem. The problem was a thief (or thieves) at the hotel.
.

[CardPadre]

Memory Lane had no business keeping people up until 1, 2, 3 am bidding on and committing finances to cards they weren't going to get unless the cards get recovered.

When Memory Lane no longer had access to the cards, that was their problem to deal with, with insurance and with consignors...THEIR problem. No right to recruit unwitting volunteers in their plan to establish value, if that's what it was.

There simply cannot be left open the possibility that in every auction, your participation is completely fictional and completely for someone else's benefit...at your expense of time and resources.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Leon

What part of "they were working with authorities, the insurance company, counsel, and other hobby veterans to determine the best route" do you not understand? There is no doubt in my mind those were the folks helping ML make their decisions. And at the end of the day it was JP's call.
And imo, he did exactly what they should have done.

As far as getting the cards there; they got there. That wasn't a problem. The problem was a thief (or thieves) at the hotel.
.

If you let your friend borrow your car and he decides to leave it parked in downtown San Francisco for a week and then returns it to you with broken windows and human feces in the passenger seat, do you get mad at your friend or at the homeless meth addict who smashed out the windows and defecated on the seat?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Lots of angst over a decision in a no win situation that didn't hurt anyone, accomplished some practical things as summarized by Phil's post, and avoided disrupting completely an auction where lots other folks had consigned non-stolen cards with the expectation of business as usual. Some good sanctimony though, for sure.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Lots of angst over a decision in a no win situation that didn't hurt anyone, accomplished some practical things as summarized by Phil's post, and avoided disrupting completely an auction where lots other folks had consigned non-stolen cards with the expectation of business as usual. Some good sanctimony though, for sure.

Sanctimony? Please. Disagree with people who don't think an AH should deliberately pretend to offer cards it doesn't have, but stooping to belittling should be beneath you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Sanctimony? Please. Disagree with people who don't think an AH should deliberately pretend to offer cards it doesn't have, but stooping to belittling should be beneath you.

OK, I'll reframe it along the lines of your own post.

Honestly, I find it so hard to believe that so many people are offended by this.

To be clear, you said before, Honestly, I find it so hard to believe that so many people defend this.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

OK, I'll reframe it along the lines of your own post.

Honestly, I find it so hard to believe that so many people are offended by this.

To be clear, you said before, Honestly, I find it so hard to believe that so many people defend this.

You said you don’t consign items to AHs. Do you buy from AHs? They apparently had customers sweating bids at 1 and 2 in the morning for six figures as a practical exercise for their own benefit or to satisfy a hypothetical of if we actually had these cards what would you pay. That seems wrong. And there’s also the fundamental problem before all that they shipped millions of value to a local Best Western’s management. That can and should be called into question.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

You said you don’t consign items to AHs. Do you buy from AHs? They apparently had customers sweating bids at 1 and 2 in the morning for six figures as a practical exercise for their own benefit or to satisfy a hypothetical of if we actually had these cards what would you pay. That seems wrong. And there’s also the fundamental problem before all that they shipped millions of value to a local Best Western’s management. That can and should be called into question.

I definitely call into question shipping to the Best Western, and have posted on that. They should have held it for pickup, or shipped to Joe to take with him on the plane. I think it's unfortunate that people bid on the stolen cards, and admit and admitted before it isn't a pretty look at all, my point has been it's a no win situation and their solution may have been better than the alternative taking into account all the issues and concerns.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Carter08

You said you don’t consign items to AHs. Do you buy from AHs? They apparently had customers sweating bids at 1 and 2 in the morning for six figures as a practical exercise for their own benefit or to satisfy a hypothetical of if we actually had these cards what would you pay. That seems wrong. And there’s also the fundamental problem before all that they shipped millions of value to a local Best Western’s management. That can and should be called into question.

But, but, but, there's a double standard. If an AH we like does it, that's fine, there's nothing to see here, and those who have a problem with it are sanctimonious.

If you or I did such a thing in the BST section of this website, we'd be heavily scolded if not banned.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

OK, I'll reframe it along the lines of your own post.

Honestly, I find it so hard to believe that so many people are offended by this.

To be clear, you said before, Honestly, I find it so hard to believe that so many people defend this.

I thought this might be the thread we were on the same side for once lol. Running apparently illegal, fraudulent fake auctions seems very difficult to defend. And we all know none of you would defend someone unpopular doing 100% the same thing. I cannot see how this is not a different rules for different people take. Nobody wants to bite and say me doing it in the BST is just fine and dandy also.

If one's position is defending a lie or fabrication, then one is pretty much always wrong. I have a very hard time seeing any situation where the right thing to do is to lie to your customers. And half the arguments given in support are just obviously fictions like this imaginary insurance policy that requires a fake auction to set values.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Sanctimony? Please. Disagree with people who don't think an AH should deliberately pretend to offer cards it doesn't have, but stooping to belittling should be beneath you.

Agree.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If you let your friend borrow your car and he decides to leave it parked in downtown San Francisco for a week and then returns it to you with broken windows and human feces in the passenger seat, do you get mad at your friend or at the homeless meth addict who smashed out the windows and defecated on the seat?

Both?

I'd like to use a lifeline, Howie.