Memory Lane sold cards they didn't have per SCD

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by G1911

For the third time, please show me literally anyone in the world ever who has an insurance policy that requires them to host a fake fraudulent auction to value stolen goods. That’s extremely unlikely. I guess ML isn’t the only house that thinks this is fine behavior.

No policy would say this, but after the theft happens and I call my insurance company they advise me to complete the auction then yes we're just another evil auction company who is going to continue the auction.

If they give me a choice and are going to pay me either way that would be entirely different.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

No policy would say this, but after the theft happens and I call my insurance company they advise me to complete the auction then yes we're just another evil auction company who is going to continue the auction.

If they give me a choice and are going to pay me either way that would be entirely different.

Let’s use some common sense. When in all of history in any jurisdiction has an insurance company demanded a fake fraudulent auction be run in order to value a claim? This is not how it works. No real insurance company is going to do that. It’s ludicrous. If you want to defend lying to hundreds or thousands of customers to run a fake auction, get a more realistic reason to justify it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by G1911

Let’s use some common sense. When in all of history in any jurisdiction has an insurance company demanded a fake fraudulent auction be run in order to value a claim? This is not how it works. No real insurance company is going to do that. It’s ludicrous. If you want to defend lying to hundreds or thousands of customers to run a fake auction, get a more realistic reason to justify it.

We're simply at an impasse at this idea. A number of people, including those closer to the situation than either of us have suggested insurance, counsel or even law enforcement influenced the decision to continue the auction.

"Running the auction, which I am sure was done at the advice of both counsel and insurance, to establish value is certainly the best path with the least damage given the crappy situation that’s nobody’s fault. There is no winning answer under these circumstances. It sucks, millions $$ of cards got stolen and ML is on the hook. No bueno all around"

If this was an independent decision made by ML with no outside influence than I disagree with that decision. That being said I simply can't imagine that being the case.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by G1911

Let’s use some common sense. When in all of history in any jurisdiction has an insurance company demanded a fake fraudulent auction be run in order to value a claim? This is not how it works. No real insurance company is going to do that. It’s ludicrous. If you want to defend lying to hundreds or thousands of customers to run a fake auction, get a more realistic reason to justify it.

I agree that it is unlikely the insurance company would demand or require the auction to run. That said, it IS required for the insured (ML) to provide substantiation of the value of the loss. The insurance company can look for alternative means of valuation and the process becomes a dispute/negotiation which in a best case scenario is settled and a worse case scenario is litigated. Given the rarity of at least some of the cards involved and the conflicting interests in low vs high valuation, there could be some big differences in perceived value between the insurance company and insured party (ML) not to mention the complicating consignor factor. Running the auction gives a pretty hard to argue value basis for all the cards involved.
I don't have a horse in the race, just believe I understand some of why things unfolded the way they did. Once the cards were stolen the only better and "easy" ending would have been for them to have been recovered prior to the end of the auction. When that possibility expired, there was no good way for things to end. Some group (consignors, bidders, ML) was not going to be happy. I do hope that more information is revealed once the case is closed and (hopefully) the cards recovered.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I agree that it is unlikely the insurance company would demand or require the auction to run. That said, it IS required for the insured (ML) to provide substantiation of the value of the loss. The insurance company can look for alternative means of valuation and the process becomes a dispute/negotiation which in a best case scenario is settled and a worse case scenario is litigated. Given the rarity of at least some of the cards involved and the conflicting interests in low vs high valuation, there could be some big differences in perceived value between the insurance company and insured party (ML) not to mention the complicating consignor factor. Running the auction gives a pretty hard to argue value basis for all the cards involved.
I don't have a horse in the race, just believe I understand some of why things unfolded the way they did. Once the cards were stolen the only better and "easy" ending would have been for them to have been recovered prior to the end of the auction. When that possibility expired, there was no good way for things to end. Some group (consignors, bidders, ML) was not going to be happy. I do hope that more information is revealed once the case is closed and (hopefully) the cards recovered.

Yes, it is one way to value it - a convenient way for consignors perhaps, but required a fraudulent auction that appears to even be illegal in CA and lying to thousands of people. No even half-way professional insurance company is going to advise doing this - they may accept those values but there is no realistic chance any legitimate insurer demanded, told, or advised to do this.


Since Memory Lane is promising an options on a contingency if they turn up, it appears there is actually a high chance there is no insurance here whatsoever. The insurance company owns recovered goods if they have paid on them, in pretty much any policy covering stolen goods. Memory Lane cannot promise these options deals to bidders if there is an insurance claim paid - the cards would become the property of the insurance company to sell or do with as they please (definitely sell somehow). Perhaps the options are just another lie, but I am surprised the ML fans have tried to go so far with the insurance claims that just makes no sense at all - this is probably the worst route to try and justify it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes, it is one way to value it - a convenient way for consignors perhaps, but required a fraudulent auction that appears to even be illegal in CA and lying to thousands of people. No even half-way professional insurance company is going to advise doing this - they may accept those values but there is no realistic chance any legitimate insurer demanded, told, or advised to do this.


Since Memory Lane is promising an options on a contingency if they turn up, it appears there is actually a high chance there is no insurance here whatsoever. The insurance company owns recovered goods if they have paid on them, in pretty much any policy covering stolen goods. Memory Lane cannot promise these options deals to bidders if there is an insurance claim paid - the cards would become the property of the insurance company to sell or do with as they please (definitely sell somehow). Perhaps the options are just another lie, but I am surprised the ML fans have tried to go so far with the insurance claims that just makes no sense at all - this is probably the worst route to try and justify it.

You make so many assumptions you should write a novel....
.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Seven

That's exactly what I'm asking. I'd imagine they have to do SOMETHING with them

I have no idea on collectables. I do know vehicles because I have a friend who owns a business that buys them from the insurance company. If you total a vehicle and insurance pays out they own it. The insurance company already has a network set up to buy the wrecked vehicles. I would assume they have the same for collectables.

Originally Posted by Leon

You make so many assumptions you should write a novel....
.

Replace novel with comedy and I agree.

[MikeGarcia]

..It's been a while :




...Goudey Premium circa 1935-ish.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have no idea on collectables. I do know vehicles because I have a friend who owns a business that buys them from the insurance company. If you total a vehicle and insurance pays out they own it. The insurance company already has a network set up to buy the wrecked vehicles. I would assume they have the same for collectables.

If there is an insurance payout and the cards are eventually recovered, why couldn't ML have a standing offer to buy them (on behalf of the winning bidders who still wanted their winnings) from the insurance company? Doesn't something like that seem obvious for everybody, especially the insurance company, who then wouldn't need to search for a buyer and probably sell at a discount?

And if few of the winning bidders still wanted their winnings, wouldn't it make sense for the insurance company to work a deal with ML to auction them off?

I don't see why it seems to be assumed that if an insurance company ends up with the recovered cards, that they'd become unavailable to ML or the bidders.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Leon

You make so many assumptions you should write a novel....
.

For the fourth time, I will repeat my request for an example of any insurance policy, demand or decision in all of human history anywhere in the world that a company run a fake fraudulent auction to value items.

This narrative so many of you are pushing makes absolutely no sense. What insurance company has ever done this? How are they paying out $2M but not securing the assets if recovered?

Please, correct me! All I’m seeing is claims that make no sense with no precedent. The story should make sense.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by G1911

For the fourth time, I will repeat my request for an example of any insurance policy, demand or decision in all of human history anywhere in the world that a company run a fake fraudulent auction to value items.

This narrative so many of you are pushing makes absolutely no sense. What insurance company has ever done this? How are they paying out $2M but not securing the assets if recovered?

Please, correct me! All I’m seeing is claims that make no sense with no precedent. The story should make sense.

You won't get it, nor I do I believe a statement is coming out from ML. We only can speculate.

The bottom line for me is what I said earlier. An AH in 2024 ran an auction with cards that were stolen. I can't belive that.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

For the fourth time, I will repeat my request for an example of any insurance policy, demand or decision in all of human history anywhere in the world that a company run a fake fraudulent auction to value items.

This narrative so many of you are pushing makes absolutely no sense. What insurance company has ever done this? How are they paying out $2M but not securing the assets if recovered?

Please, correct me! All I’m seeing is claims that make no sense with no precedent. The story should make sense.

To add to this, this assumes there is insurance coverage for loss under these circumstances, which based on what we know (admittedly could be quite limited) seems highly unlikely. Anyone who has insurance can file a claim for loss. You do not need the ins co to give you permission. Once it gets before an adjuster that is a different story.

Adam stated it appeared to him to violate several consumer protection laws in CA to have run the auction. Ryan made it seem like ML was advised by a lawyer or the ins co to let the auction run. And lastly, Jeffrey, who seems to have some inside knowledge of this, agreed that it was necessary to let the auction run.

Lesson here is that mistakes are very hard to remedy sometimes.

[mannequin1]

I know 2 million dollars of cards were stolen, but wasn't that only a small percentage of the number of items in the entire auction? Could that be why they let the auction run in its entirety?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by mannequin1

I know 2 million dollars of cards were stolen, but wasn't that only a small percentage of the number of items in the entire auction? Could that be why they let the auction run in its entirety?

Another question to many would be couldn't ML have the missing items bid up for insurance purposes? I'm NOT saying ML would do something like that with their stellar reputation in the business, but some people might suspect that.

This is posted near the top of every page. Please adhere to it in the future.

If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. It's one of the most important rules on the forum.



.

"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mannequin1

I know 2 million dollars of cards were stolen, but wasn't that only a small percentage of the number of items in the entire auction? Could that be why they let the auction run in its entirety?

Another question to many would be couldn't ML have the missing items bid up for insurance purposes? I'm NOT saying ML would do something like that with their stellar reputation in the business, but some people might suspect that.

What would be the point of that? They would then have to pay the higher figure to the consignor.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by peter_spaeth

what would be the point of that? They would then have to pay the higher figure to the consignor.

20%?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Deertick

20%?

Same incentive they always have on every lot in every auction. As does every auction house.

[JollyElm]

A special 'Collectorisms' offering:

Bled and Breakfast
The theft of millions of dollars worth of rare and historical collectibles, which had for some inexplicable reason remained unsecured somewhere inside of a hotel facility.

See also: Indoor Fool - rightfully or wrongfully, the 'blunderous' employee who is ultimately held responsible for such an oversight.

See also: Broom Service - the methods employed by interested parties to lessen the repercussions and make sure this ridiculous travesty is swept under the rug and forgotten about.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Deertick

20%?

Again, be logical. First, these were all the big time cards in the auction, so ML gave up part of their 20%. Second, do you really think a long-standing auction house that likely makes over $1.5mm each auction would commit insurance fraud for an extra 12%-15% on $2mm (or and extra $250k - $300k)? I am sure there are businesses who would do something crazy like that, but memory lane (like most businesses) would not. Third, they just had $2mm+ of other people’s property stolen, and they are more than half way through an auction and trying to figure out what to do, and you think the conclusion is shill the stolen cards so we get X% more for insurance? I doubt ML would do that ever, but under these circumstances I think that thought was further east from their minds.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Again, be logical. First, these were all the big time cards in the auction, so ML gave up part of their 20%. Second, do you really think a long-standing auction house that likely makes over $1.5mm each auction would commit insurance fraud for an extra 12%-15% on $2mm (or and extra $250k - $300k)? I am sure there are businesses who would do something crazy like that, but memory lane (like most businesses) would not. Third, they just had $2mm+ of other people’s property stolen, and they are more than half way through an auction and trying to figure out what to do, and you think the conclusion is shill the stolen cards so we get X% more for insurance? I doubt ML would do that ever, but under these circumstances I think that thought was further east from their minds.

Sorry, I was being facetious. Just trying to beat the next conspiracy theorist to the punch.

[toothcutter]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Again, be logical. First, these were all the big time cards in the auction, so ML gave up part of their 20%. Second, do you really think a long-standing auction house that likely makes over $1.5mm each auction would commit insurance fraud for an extra 12%-15% on $2mm (or and extra $250k - $300k)? I am sure there are businesses who would do something crazy like that, but memory lane (like most businesses) would not. Third, they just had $2mm+ of other people’s property stolen, and they are more than half way through an auction and trying to figure out what to do, and you think the conclusion is shill the stolen cards so we get X% more for insurance? I doubt ML would do that ever, but under these circumstances I think that thought was further east from their minds.

Is an inside job possible?

[mannequin1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What would be the point of that? They would then have to pay the higher figure to the consignor.

I was thinking of the insurance company, not the consignor.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mannequin1

I was thinking of the insurance company, not the consignor.

We know. Peter was explaining that your position doesn't make sense, as any "extra" that ML received from the insurance would then have to be paid to the consignors.

[Republicaninmass]

Why on earth wouldn't they just ship them to the guys house who is driving to the show? Did they pay for his flight then go "all in" for a best Western plus? Hindsight...wow.