Ohtani or Ruth?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bk400

If value in terms of career WAR is your measure of who is better, then Phil Niekro was a better pitcher than both Clayton Kershaw and Bob Gibson.

Want to compare Ohtani's WAR7 to Ruth's?
I looked it up. As a hitter, 35.4 for Ohtani to 84.7 for Ruth. So let's talk about peaks, shall we? For reference, Aaron Judge is 56.9.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Want to compare Ohtani's WAR7 to Ruth's?

Strawman. Team Ohtani has never made the argument that WAR is the right metric to measure baseball players across different eras.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by bk400

Strawman. Team Ohtani has never made the argument that WAR is the right metric to measure baseball players across different eras.

Just to chime in, if you don't mind. I can't speak for Ohtani's effectiveness as a pitcher or comparing across eras, because I do not know the stat for it. There is, however a stat that is all encompassing that measures a players offensive production, across eras, adjusting for park factors. I've included an image below that gives a more comprehensive definition below, along with its formula.






If we go by this statistical measurement. It's Ruth, it's not close. He owns a 194 wRC+. Ohtani's is very impressive though, sitting at a 156 wRC+.

For reference, it labels the three best hitters of all time, assuming minimum 1500 games, as Ruth, Williams and Bonds in that order.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Seven

Just to chime in, if you don't mind. I can't speak for Ohtani's effectiveness as a pitcher or comparing across eras, because I do not know the stat for it. There is, however a stat that is all encompassing that measures a players offensive production, across eras, adjusting for park factors. I've included an image below that gives a more comprehensive definition below, along with its formula.






If we go by this statistical measurement. It's Ruth, it's not close. He owns a 194 wRC+. Ohtani's is very impressive though, sitting at a 156 wRC+.

For reference, it labels the three best hitters of all time, assuming minimum 1500 games, as Ruth, Williams and Bonds in that order.

Thanks for this. I took a look and I think I get most of the wRC+ math. I actually can't say for sure, but does wRC+ account for the quality of the peer group (in other words, the quality of the average player)?

If not, then Ruth's high wRC+ suggests that he is much better than his peers in terms of offensive production than Ohtani, but it doesn't necessarily speak to whether doing that is easier or harder than what Ohtani is doing today (156 wRC+) relative to his peers.

Which means it really isn't that helpful in comparing players across eras; it's just helpful in comparing players relative to the average players within their own eras.

Ruth may be more genetically gifted relative to his peers than Ohtani is to his. In fact, when you look at Ruth, who looked like a morbidly obese person during the off-season and perhaps just an obese person in-season, that's a very plausible explanation for his out performance.

Ohtani is doing what he is doing in an era when basically every player is genetically gifted and also training hard and not screwing around lifestyle-wise (at least in ways that are detrimental to performance). And, as has been stated many times, Ohtani is the only two-way player in his era (which speaks to its absolute and relative difficulty), while Ruth was one of many -- and perhaps not even the best (cue Martin Dihigo and Bullet Rogan).

[Seven]

Originally Posted by bk400

Thanks for this. I took a look and I think I get most of the wRC+ math. I actually can't say for sure, but does wRC+ account for the quality of the peer group (in other words, the quality of the average player)?

If not, then Ruth's high wRC+ suggests that he is much better than his peers in terms of offensive production than Ohtani, but it doesn't necessarily speak to whether doing that is easier or harder than what Ohtani is doing today (156 wRC+) relative to his peers.

Which means it really isn't that helpful in comparing players across eras; it's just helpful in comparing players relative to the average players within their own eras.

Ruth may be more genetically gifted relative to his peers than Ohtani is to his. In fact, when you look at Ruth, who looked like a morbidly obese person during the off-season and perhaps just an obese person in-season, that's a very plausible explanation for his out performance.

Ohtani is doing what he is doing in an era when basically every player is genetically gifted and also training hard and not screwing around lifestyle-wise (at least in ways that are detrimental to performance). And, as has been stated many times, Ohtani is the only two-way player in his era (which speaks to its absolute and relative difficulty), while Ruth was one of many -- and perhaps not even the best (cue Martin Dihigo and Bullet Rogan).

I know it claims to be era and park adjusted, but unfortunately I think it's the best thing were going to find in terms of a number. I believe I said it earlier in the thread, we can only truly compare a player to his peers and in his era. Life is so different now.

Fangraphs does factor wRC+ for the Negro League players as well. Josh Gibson is the technical all time leader with a 202 wRC+ but due to the small sample sizes we have of his stats, as it's under 1500 games, I didn't think it should've been included.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Want to compare Ohtani's WAR7 to Ruth's?
I looked it up. As a hitter, 35.4 for Ohtani to 84.7 for Ruth. So let's talk about peaks, shall we? For reference, Aaron Judge is 56.9.

That is only for hitting. His overall WAR7 is 51.9. His total WAR in the Covid year was -.4 (from his pitching). He has played 8 seasons with 51.5 total WAR. His peak is not Ruth or even Judge, but for example Frank Robinson was 52.9 and Ohtani will pass him, and a bunch of other Hofers next year. His WAR in 2019 was 2.4. He could easily catch or pass Judge with another 7.5+ season. He has averaged 9 WAR the last 5 years and his worst season was 7.7.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

That is only for hitting. His overall WAR7 is 51.9. His total WAR in the Covid year was -.4 (from his pitching). He has played 8 seasons with 51.5 total WAR. His peak is not Ruth or even Judge, but for example Frank Robinson was 52.9 and Ohtani will pass him, and a bunch of other Hofers next year. His WAR in 2019 was 2.4. He could easily catch or pass Judge with another 7.5+ season. He has averaged 9 WAR the last 5 years and his worst season was 7.7.

Yes, he absolutely is a great player, and the two way thing is amazing as I have said. I just don't buy the comparison to Ruth.

[ullmandds]

Ohtani is 100% "a modern day babe ruth" for his pitching/hitting prowess. The ball just sounds different coming off his bat...like ruth. Ohtani has a mania attached to him...worldwide...kinda like ruth had later in his career. Ohtani...like ruth has controversy attached with the gambling thing. All the greats are flawed.

Ruth's legacy is cemented. If ohtani can complete a whole career approaching 150-200 wins and over 4-500 hr's...he will be in his own league.

Comparisons from diff eras are fun...but are imprecise.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Ohtani is 100% "a modern day babe ruth" for his pitching/hitting prowess. The ball just sounds different coming off his bat...like ruth. Ohtani has a mania attached to him...worldwide...kinda like ruth had later in his career. Ohtani...like ruth has controversy attached with the gambling thing. All the greats are flawed.

Ruth's legacy is cemented. If ohtani can complete a whole career approaching 150-200 wins and over 4-500 hr's...he will be in his own league.

Comparisons from diff eras are fun...but are imprecise.

He has 39 wins thru his age 30 season. That's a big IF. Home runs, much more realistic.

[Beercan collector]

Every sport is always looking for the next king, went through the same thing when LeBron was at a similar stage in his career and also with Mahomes .
A lot of it is trying to predict the future.
Not enough to unseat Ruth ... yet

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

Not enough to unseat Ruth ... yet

Team Ohtani here, but that I won't argue at all. If Ohtani ends up in a cascading injury spiral or otherwise doesn't continue to show what he's currently showing for a few more years then he was simply a guy who shined much brighter than his peers for a while.

I don't blame those that want Ohtani to prove more. I just believe he'll deliver that "more."