1910 D322 Wagner

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Posted By: husbandoftammy

Humm... You don't see many cards get broken out of SGC holders to be put in GAI holders? Maybe this is a thing of the future? This card was in the last Mastro Auction in a SGC 30 holder.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2797026079

http://www.zmotive.com/gallery/jccards/1910_d_322_tip_top_4_wagner_sgc_30?full=1

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Posted By: Wesley

It's doing pretty well in its current holder. Far exceeding the SGC 1.5 that I sold a few months ago.

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Posted By: BOTN

JC,

You react as if I broke it out of the SGC holder and sent it to ASA. I think that most collectors of vintage material are comfortable with SGC and GAI grading their cards. Both are extremely competent grading companies.

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Posted By: runscott

Greg - I beg to differ. Until I hear one of these two paragons of grading 'fess up as to how that e95 Cobb got past both companies' expert graders, my opinion stands.

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Posted By: JC

Greg, I have not seen to many pre-war SGC cards broken out to go to another grading company. Then when I read the sellers description (I guess it's you), you state that you support both SGC and GAI which is fine. Then you state to buy the card and NOT the holder. So, why break it out of the SGC holder? That does not make any sense to me. I think both companies are the best possible choices we have right now. I wish I had that card back actually.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I've been known to bust out a card from one and send to the other for aesthetic reasons. Of course that's to get rid of PSA holders and put the cards into much more pleasing SGC or GAI holders.

Also, set registry. If I have a bunch of SGC graded cards from a set and want to do a registry, I'm going to cross over the odd GAI card that I might pick up.

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Posted By: runscott

SGC is our best choice, but I think GAI and PSA are a fairly distant 2nd.

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Posted By: BOTN

Scott,

I am not defending GAI or SGC on my E95 but I hardly think that one example warrants hanging these guys. You may want to relax. Grading companies make mistakes. They are run by humans. I make mistakes everyday. I am glad that I am not under the same scrutiny that the grading companies are and that you are not watching my every move. I would probably end up slitting my wrists for feeling like a complete failure. It takes backbone to admit when you are wrong. SGC did that and is taking care of the problem.

JC,

I consider myself a master at the grading game. I have been cracking cards out of holders for more than 3 years now-a concept that many dealers just learned about. When 99.9% of the dealers were only using PSA, I was using SGC, PSA and BGS. I broke the Wagner out as I thought that I had a great shot at getting a 2.5. The half grade does very well for me and is more accurate in grading. The fact that both companies graded it as Good, works for me and reinforces why I use both of them. Although I still contend that the card is under graded, despite the creases.

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Posted By: runscott

If you would like to divert attention by accusing me of being an over-watchful watch-dog, sorry but it ain't gonna work.

As you are perfectly aware, all I wanted was a response from either or both of them - I believe that is almost exactly what this post just asked for. As I predicted to several board members, despite the fact that you told me you would be getting the card back and that you would either send to me or send quality scans, I knew that would never happen...and it won't. Is that SGC's fault, or yours? Impossible to tell - how fortunate.

If you choose to slit your wrists I can't stop you.

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Posted By: runscott

<<It takes backbone to admit when you are wrong. SGC did that and is taking care of the problem.>>

Greg, whatever the above comment means, it seems to be a secret between you and SGC. The rest of us haven't heard anything from SGC or GAI as to what happened. It's important, Greg, because certain scenarios are a bit more forgiveable than others.

Yes, I expect GAI to grade doctored cards, as well as reprints, which is quite posssibly why whoever submitted it to them in the first place chose GAI...could have been a card doctor who slips trimmed and doctored cards by GAI on a regular basis.

That person, whoever he/she might be, might also have been aware that SGC crosses over GAI cards without looking at them closely, so they sent the doctored card in the GAI holder to SGC so that it would fetch more.

This is just guess-work, but what else do we have? GAI and SGC don't seem to be talking.

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Posted By: BOTN

Scott,

I was not aware that SGC and GAI were supposed to report to you about the cards that they may have graded in error. You might want to call them to find out if they know this.

And you are completely wrong about the card. The raw E95 is coming back to me as I had requested. SGC once again offered to buy it back. They are certainly not trying to cover up anything as you might believe. There is however medication that you can take for your paranoia.

Your comment about expecting GAI to grade reprints and altered cards, is one of the most absurd things that you have ever written and if you meant this, it almost certainly discredits everything that you have ever written.

You clearly do not understand much about grading if you think that SGC is going to cross anyone's cards over without looking. Once SGC puts a card in their holder, it becomes their responsibility. Please tell me what the upside would be for either GAI or SGC to holder a bad card. They get $10 to grade it and in this case they would have had to come up with $700 to buy the card back. That is fiscally irresponsible thinking to me. You see they get the same money $10 whether it holders or not.

I cannot understand why you have to look for something cryptic in my comment about backbone. SGC was willing to buy the card back and take a hit. In my rule book that is backbone.

By the way, how come you have been so secretive/protective of the person who you sold the E95 to originally? I have asked you on two occasions if you could provide me with all of his contact info, city, state, etc and all that you have given me is a name. I was interested in tracing the path that the card took between your owning it and my owning it.

Greg

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Posted By: runscott

If you do, I have no problem with pulling the stops out.

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Posted By: BOTN

Scott,

I can't tell you what to do. If you want to take this to the next level and pollute the thread, please do so. I am sure that Bill and others will tell you when they have had enough.

I am just not about to sit back and let you fly off the handle. You are writing things that are not accurate and therefore are not true.

I was not aware that calling you out was not permitted on this board. Think that I will go back over the FAQ's.

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Posted By: JC

I'm glad the thread got great interest on it.. LOL I think that LEON should be the Nuetral judge on this and pick a winner... Then move on.

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Posted By: runscott

Unfortunately, the "you/me" technique is necessary here.

<<I was not aware that SGC and GAI were supposed to report to you about the cards that they may have graded in error. You might want to call them to find out if they know this.>>

US, Greg, US - that's a plural word that refers to their customers. It's obvious that they feel no need to explain themselves to anyone. I agree that it was a human error on GAI's part, which needs no further explanation. But regarding SGC, I have the highest respect for their graders and believe it impossible that this many problems on one card could have slipped by them. So if it was a policy problem, then, yes, I would like to hear that it has been corrected. Otherwise, I assume this type of problem will persist.

<<And you are completely wrong about the card. The raw E95 is coming back to me as I had requested. SGC once again offered to buy it back. They are certainly not trying to cover up anything as you might believe. There is however medication that you can take for your paranoia.>>

Then you lied in your previous email in which you stated that they planned to send you $700 and keep the card. Unfortunately there is no medication for your problem. What are you covering up Greg?

<<Your comment about expecting GAI to grade reprints and altered cards, is one of the most absurd things that you have ever written and if you meant this, it almost certainly discredits everything that you have ever written.>>

So what would you call the process that e95 Cobb underwent - cosmetic surgery? If in your mind this discredits everything else I have previously written, I can certainly live with that.

<<You clearly do not understand much about grading if you think that SGC is going to cross anyone's cards over without looking. Once SGC puts a card in their holder, it becomes their responsibility. Please tell me what the upside would be for either GAI or SGC to holder a bad card. They get $10 to grade it and in this case they would have had to come up with $700 to buy the card back. That is fiscally irresponsible thinking to me. You see they get the same money $10 whether it holders or not.>>

I see the light-bulb finally lighting up above your head. Yes, Greg, that's exactly what I think is happening, and many collectors with more credibility than you possess, believe the same. You are getting the point...slowly, but it's happening. There is no up-side - it's just plain laziness. So you believe "to err is human" but "to be lazy" is not? As an SGC customer, I expect my SGC-slabbed cards to be graded by SGC, not by GAI, period.

<<I cannot understand why you have to look for something cryptic in my comment about backbone. SGC was willing to buy the card back and take a hit. In my rule book that is backbone.>>

I've addressed this already - I can't help it if you can't understand it. You have made a point in recent posts of pointing out how good you are at making money by passing cards from one slab to another. I don't think you expected SGC to get bitten by this altered card, and since they are your grading company of choice you are defending them. I would do the same if I were in your shoes, but I don't send restored cards to SGC, so I don't know what it feels like to be in your shoes.

<<By the way, how come you have been so secretive/protective of the person who you sold the E95 to originally? I have asked you on two occasions if you could provide me with all of his contact info, city, state, etc and all that you have given me is a name. I was interested in tracing the path that the card took between your owning it and my owning it.>>

There's that diversion thing going on again. "waahhh!! Scott won't give me what I need to solve this problem and find the card doctor! :)waaahhh!"

But I'll humor you - What is it about this email that you do not understand? Yes, I save most emails, which is how I was able to provide you with the info in the following email. It is possible that this person included his address with his payment, and not in an email. I've x'd out his name because although I got in an email fight with him over his describing the back as clean (left out the tear and the back image) I am certain that he did not doctor the card.

"I sold it to a guy named "xxxxxxx" on ebay, in May '02. He in turn sold it on ebay in July '02. I have tried to contact xxxxxxx, but his ebay handle and his email address are both now invalid. xxxxx definitely did not doctor the card - I remember the scan he had on ebay. I don't remember who he sold it to."

...and no more emails please. I feel like the reporter in the prison asking the inmates if they are guilty or not.

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Posted By: runscott

I'm sick of this topic, as I am sure everyone else is. It was very naive of me to think that this card was 'accidentally' submitted to GAI after being altered. Most of the collectors I have talked to about this just chuckled.

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Posted By: leon

nice push ......not yet though....

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Posted By: BOTN

I will try to address this nonsense point by point. I will admit upfront that dealing with a crazy man is not one of my strong suits.

You wanted an explanation from SGC? Did you ever think to contact them? It was my card that I brought to their attention with your help. Not sure who they needed to talk to about this but I know they would have answered any question you had. I think it would go something like this: WE MADE A MISTAKE AND DID NOT SEE THE ALTERATIONS. THIS WILL HAPPEN FROM TIME TO TIME. THAT IS WHY WE OFFER A GUARANTEE ON THE CARDS WE GRADE.

Since you admittedly save every e-mail do you have the one that I sent to you last week where I said that I GOT THE FEELING that SGC may be sending me a check and not the card? The key words, I GOT THE FEELING-very simple English, Scott. It just so happens that Sean wrote to me a few days ago and said he was sending the card back to me per my request. I would not call that a lie, Scott. Maybe in your world all things remain constant but in the real word, in which most of us live, things change as time moves on.

You (and your collectors with more credibility then me) are beyond help if you actually think that any grading company who actually offers a guarantee is going to take a risk of charging $10 to grade a card knowing that there is a lifetime liability on the card should it turn out to be altered. A rationally thinking person would know that the company will make every effort to limit it's downside by not holdering a card. It does not take many errors like this to put a company like SGC out of business. I cannot believe that I am actually addressing this matter with you.

Once again, if I thought or knew that this card was altered, it would not have been submitted to SGC or GAI. If I want altered cards to grade I will send them to PSA. They do not seem to have any issue with grading them, although at this point I do have an issue with knowingly selling one. I consider SGC and GAI friends and would not want to do anything that harmed their business. Which is why I told them not to send me the $700 for the error. Again, your conspiracy theory that you have spun from your own paranoia is not permitting you to see reality. Honestly Scott you are embarrassing yourself now.

There is no diversion on my post. You are the one from the onset of posting about the E95 card who refused to come clean with the information you had. Why protect the guy who you sold it to? Very strange behavior for a guy who calls himself a watchdog. By the way, it was you in an e-mail to me today who said your issue is with the guys who are doctoring cards not the companies that graded them. So why mock my wanting to know the travels of this card?

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Posted By: BcD

He is too old and a Texan.....this set in his ways!

Just kiddin~

But on a serious note JC, I have taken 500 SGC cards out of their holders.They went through a few different aspects of grading. At one time too lenient,at another extremely harsh and of course there is the ever demented "cross over" motive just to register some cards on one of the other grading service registrys. The first generation holders of SGC were graded all by the founder,Joe "Bonehead" Merkle.Being caught up in a T206 Doyle fiasco,those cards are cursed,thus I busted a bunch of those out and had them regraded as well. Just thought I would clue you in on a few motives for busting SGC held cards.Selling low grade vintage cards may bring a better profit "raw" as opposed to 10,20,or 30 holders as well.I'm not talking Leon-JC type cards that may not exist in VG or better but the common E & T cards people submitted for grading that came back lower than hoped or lower than the submitters ability to grade raw cards!

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Posted By: Elliot

I know that SGC in the past (and currently with the E95 Cobb) have agreed to buy back cards that were graded when they should not have been, HOWEVER I was not aware, nor could I find a mention on their website, that they provide an explicit guarantee. Have they started to provide a guarantee?