An Offshoot of First Amendment- The Freedom to Post

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Let's run the memorabilia side different than the main board. Let's make a pact to encourage all posters. On the memorabilia end there should be a strong committment to the first amendment. People can post on anything remotely connected to memorabilia.

For ticket collectors, is there a big difference between unused tickets and ticket stubs. If there is I think there shouldn't be, unused tickets are normally obtained through backdoor channels. However, used tickets normally mean that the owner actually went to the game, which is important by itself. However, I do understand that from a rarity viewpoint that an unused ticket might command a premium.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

Peter,

What in the world does the first ammendment have to do with posting on a baseball memorabilia forum?

Methinks the cry of our "first ammendment" rights is one that is much overused. In many cases, the interpretation of this right is often misinterpreted when one looks at the original intention of the ammendment as it was originally drafted. Our forefathers certainly did not intend it to allow all citizens to say whatever they want to under any circumstance without taking responsibility for their actions or words, especially if it was at the expense of others. For some reason, it has been seen as that over 200+ years of interpretation.

I don't believe a baseball memorabilia forum is the place to start dragging that subject up though...

What the heck am I talking about... Time to change the subject (and don't get me started on what the 2nd Ammendment was originally all about).

And no, I'm not an attorney, nor do I play one on T.V.

I love American history, in particular the American Revolution, and the founding of our country.

Anyway...

This site has always been very cordial and people have always been free (as well as encouraged) to post their favorite items and ask questions at their free will. I've never seen anyone stifled or ridiculed in posting anything that came across their minds so I have no idea why you bring up "first ammendment rights"

I saw where you got a little flak on the other side of the board. My sincerest recommendation would be to take it easy, my friend. You seem like a good guy and I mean that sincerely. But I would recommend that you may want to slow down a bit. Catch your breath. Don't make a mountain over a mole hill. Just join in a conversation. Post a question. But relax on charging up the hill that we should uphold the first ammendment.

This site has some great people who always have an interest in helping their fellow collectors out. I've met some really great people on here and even added to my collection through these guys.

I look forward to you posting some of your collection.

Probably none of this came out the way I wanted to say it, but what the heck, I have to watch Daitsuke pitch tonight and I'm sick over it

Best regards,
Greg

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

Crap, I spelled Daisuke incorrectly.

Sorry about that

Somebody help us. I can't take another 84 years...

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Peter,
As my first amendment rights are being used here,PLEASE STOP. Cant you take a hint from the other board. Are you at least even listening!! You post up, people in a nice way try and tell you ease up a little and you just continue to go on with this mind numbing dribble thread after thread! What is it do you just like to yammer and now you like to see it it writing to? Take a hint from the other board and take a little time off and think about what you post before you post it. Believe me for a "lawyer" a man with an education you post some very stupid threads.

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Posted By: Max Weder

Peter

I will reiterate Greg and Al's comments: please pause, stop and think before posting. One good practice is to compose your email, wait for 15 minutes, then re-read it before posting. Up until this point, no one has complained about any postings on this forum, including yours, so I can't see any reason for you to bring this up now on this forum.

That said, in response to your question on unused tickets versus game stubs: The marketplace clearly recognizes a premium for unused tickets. I don't understand your reference to unused tickets being obtained by "backdoor channels". Quite simply, an unused ticket means that the person who had the ticket didn't go to the event. The premium is no doubt based on the fact that the ticket is complete, much like the card market which places value on condition.

Max

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Max, if there were a "Patience of Job" award, I'd be nominating you for the month of October.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Greg--congratulations! You understand the First Amendment and its relationship to an internet chat board better than Peter does.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Since I too believe in First Amendment rights, I wish to exercise them as I choose. So my topic is:

Why don't penguins fly? Let's discuss.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Barry, that's very creative, and as we all know, "creativity is the highest level of intelligence ..."

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

"Why don't penguins fly?"

My naive guess would be that there are no convenient airports in those frigid climates where those little guys live.

By the way. If you want to hear the World's Best Penguin Joke go here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OpuuAa7gdE

Hey, whadda ya want..... It's the fifth inning and I'm just trying not to kill myself here. I just had to step away from the television. My right fielder is wearing the wrong stinking uniform and is playing for the other team, and my baseball watching season is sinking faster than the nausea in the pit of my stomach.

All kidding aside, I want Peter to know he's more than welcome here and I look forward to his contributions. I was only giving some constructive criticism. I certainly wasn't trying to get on his case. I aplogize if any of it came off that way.

Greg

Edited to say that the joke may not be suitable for those under 18 and those @#$#@! Red Sox are doing it to me once again... it's now 4-0

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Posted By: barrysloate

Of course Peter is welcome, but to bring up First Amendment rights is not only preposterous, it shows that he is not really attuned to the feedback he is getting from the board.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Thankyou Max! Couldnt have said it better myself!
And Peter I know Im going to regret this but In answer to your question Wouldnt you think a FULL ticket would be worth more than a stub? Wouldnt it command a premium?I guess we now should ask all the card collectors what would you rather have Half a T206 wagner or a whole one!!! There another thread to start Peter! Boy I know Im going to regret this!!! No SMILEY FACE!!!!!

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I think it's a reasonable question to ask...not the first amendment stuff, but the ticket stubs question. I personally feel like a stub is more collectible to me because it was at the game...notice I said "collectible to me" not valuable. Unused tickets are unappealing to me because they probably were just leftover unsold tickets. I understand they may be worth more and more collectible to some people, but they lack character IMO.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Peter this is for you ! We will play a game Tell me what this ticket is and why it is significant! To help there were 55000+ fans at this game and I do believe it happened to be a give away game that day! Remember this is a FULL ticket not a stub.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Too easy Al, but I'll let Peter answer if he wants to.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Unused tickets are unappealing to me because they probably were just leftover unsold tickets.

Dan, that might be true if the subject is tickets from around the 1980s to the present, especially when you see a hoard of a few hundred offered. I don't think that's a fair conclusion to draw for truly vintage tickets. I just went and looked at all of the unused tickets in my collection from the 1930s, '40s and '50s, and I'd bet the house that each one was in fact sold but not used by the buyer. In fact, a few times I've come across full tickets inside a program with two stubs, all from the same game. The conclusion I draw from that is the initial owner bought four tickets and used only two.

The part of Peter's post that I find annoying -- aside from the ridiculous reference to the First Amendment -- is the blanket statement that "unused tickets are normally obtained through backdoor channels" without him qualifying it in any way or offering any basis for how he came to that conclusion. I realize that this is just Peter being Peter, stating something as fact without putting much thought into it, only to backtrack later, smiley face ready at the keyboard, when someone calls him on it. But it still bugs me because I expect people to put more thought into what they write, especially at a venue such as this.

But at least there was no bad/incorrect/possibly damaging advice on the law dispensed.

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Posted By: ramram

If the stub were more valuable and you had a full ticket, wouldn't you just....(finish this sentence).

Rob M.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Thanks Dan!! But if peter doesnt answer in the next 20 or so minutes .( I know the suspense is killing you) I would love to have you answer !!! Tic Tic Tic Peter Dan is waiting!!!

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Okay...I'm not waiting for Peter. David Wells perfect game!

Rob, I did qualify my post as saying that it's more collectible to me knowing that it was used at that particular game.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Heck Al. Even I got this one. lol. Had to wiki it, but I got it! We'll see what the response is. Maybe some insight about playing games exactly one week after Mother's Day.

Joann

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Rob,
Im still trying to figure out what the he@@ Back Door Channels means? Is he talking about scalped tickets? If so what and how could this possibly figure into the cost of a ticket stub or full ! Am I missing something ? Or as we say is this Manny being Manny or Peter Being Peter!!!

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Dan,

I wasn't questioning the collectiblity of a full ticket or your collecting tastes. I was just throwing a thought out there that to assume a full ticket is one that was unsold might not be accurate.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Guys, you keep waiting for Peter to respond..while you're sitting around here he's started 13 new threads on the Postwar board and resurrected 11 old ones on the main board.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Rob D, whoops. I was referring to one of Rob M's posts. Should have been clearer, sorry.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Gotcha. My bad. Didn't even take that possiblity into account. No problem.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Dan I knew you were like a kid in a candy store and couldnt wait for twenty minutes!!Give that man a Nebraska Indians item! (well maybe we should rip your HOLY GRAIL picture in half) Great picture by the way ! You must have been the first one with his hand up in call always saying pick me pick me!!
Joann Im glad you knew it but at least had enough strength to resist answering( not like Dan) LOL LOL.
Now back to the question at hand Peter do you think this full ticket would be worth more than a stub?

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

We very much DO want to run this side of the board different than the other side. That means a lot less superfluous threads/posts and a lot more on the point comments and a lot more civility. Therefore, to the extent the First Amendment should have any bearing here, let's RESTRICT its use and ask people to give some thought before posting. I don't know if this is your first thread here or not, but already it has a very high number of responses from this side of the board's perspective, and ominously half have nothing to do with memorabilia. These kinds of threads are exactly what we're trying to discourage.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Actually if he'd left out the nonsensical first amendment stuff he asked a good question. And that's what this side of the board needs.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Well Jeff he has done it again ! Peter has made at least a few of us have a good time on his thread! Peter as I stated before if you stick to the topic (items about baseball etc,) and stay away from first amendment the tooth fairy,how many card houses can you build with t206s, you will find people may take you a little more seriously!

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Posted By: ramram

Dan, I agree, I would also prefer an item that was actually "game used". The only problem would be that people would just start tearing their full tickets to make them look "game used" if the stub was more valuable.

Rob M.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Corey,
I dont know but at least I was one of the only ones to at least post up a Ticket and get something started on the real subject that I believe is posted here. TICKETS Maybe you should also. You can have a little fun here also !! I think its covered under the 15th amendment freedom of laughter! Dont quote me Im not a lawyer! Peter take over thats your field!! LOL

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Sorry about the comment on the first amendment, I suppose I'm in the defensive mode right now.

By backdoor channels I'm referring to tickets that were unsold and later distributed informally by the team itself. And Al that was a nice ticket you scanned.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

AH back door channels! I see. Thanks peter for clearing that up. Your welcome on the ticket posting just wished Dan Dan the answer man gave you a chance to answer. Be honest now peter your under oath did you know?

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Posted By: peter chao

Nope, didn't know. When it comes to memorabilia Dan is the Man.

Peter C.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

As noted, if a stub was more valuable than the whole ticket there would be no whole tickets. And it would be pretty silly if everyone in the world tore off the bottom third of their antique full tickets. By the same token, it would be silly if, to make them appear game attended and worth more, people rolled up their Rose Bowl programs, stuck them in their back pockets and sat on park benches and concrete curbs. Game attended or not, collectors prefer their programs and tickets to be as whole and in as nice of condition as possible.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

I agree completely with Dan--I prefer my tickets to be "game used." As silly as it may sound, stubs were actually at the game in question.

And now, a few of my favorites.

c. 1903 Hilltop Park stub:



First Yankee World Series game:



First game at Yankee Stadium:



First World's Series game at Yankee Stadium:



And, finally, another game. What did the lucky bearer of this ticket see?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Lou Gehrig's speech.

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

Peter,

I just happened to cruise on the other side of the forum just now and I have to admit that I'm really starting to wonder about you. There were others on here that took a much less politically correct stance to your posting with their statements, but I have to admit you just crossed my line as well. You really don't listen to polite suggestions and, quite frankly, I'm beginning to think you deserve all of the flak that you've received in the past.

After all of the polite suggestions about starting ridiculous threads, you come up with this?



Old Fashion Drugs-- Alcohol
October 16 2007 at 3:16 PM peter chao (Login pchaos)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure that some of this steroid stuff is getting you guys down. Let's talk about old-time players and booze. Who were the boozers that could play? Do we have scans?

Peter C.


Sorry to those guys on here that may take issue with my post, but if you were my kid and I you kept doing something time and time again despite being told not to do so, you would be significantly reprimanded. Of course, I'm going to feel really bad if I found out that this forum was your only means of social interaction with the world, but you have to wake up and smell the coffee, man.

Why don't you post something from your collection instead of posting these superfulous pieces of fluff?

Now maybe if you brought up the 21st Ammendment to the Constitution of the United States in your post I would have let it slide...

Jeeeeez

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

It's all a bad rap. I'm trying to stay within the guidelines. Even 13 year-olds have heard about alcohol, I'm not discussing some far out drug.

Peter C.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

No, you're not discussing some "far-out drug."
But this is a baseball memorabilia forum, not some twelve-step program forum.

Why do you perist in thinking that you're right, and everyone who's criticized your posts is wrong?

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

Peter,

I guess what I'm really starting to have an issue with is that there's a new post every other hour. It seems like it's always a rhetorical question.

O.K. I admit I'm cranky. I'm from New England and it's in my blood. It's October and I just heard the toilet flush and the water's beginning to circle the bowl once again. When I saw that last post all I could think of is how all these other guys feel.

FOCUS on one thing at a time, man.

Edit: Oh yeah, forgot to add this:
(which is probably what irked me enough to do my initial post to begin with). Alcoholism is not something that should be taken lightly and brought up as a means to entertain ourselves. It is a major issue in our lives and the lives of our ancestors. Bringing up your initial question, in my opinion, belittles the problem. Would you like to share all of your or your family's idiosyncracies (dictionary not in front of me, sorry if I spelled that incorrectly Barry) or medical issues on a public forum? Quite frankly, I don't believe we should be dragging the names of these guys through the mud either. Quite frankly, it's none of our damn business what they had to deal with on a personal basis or how they dealt with it. I would WELL imagine that many people during this pre-war time period (WWI, prohibition, depression, etc.) had many issues to deal with, baseball being the least of their problems. Then again, that's just my opinion.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Many times I would visit the memorabilia section and maybe post....
a slower paced place of tranquility.


have the floodgates opened?

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Posted By: barrysloate

By golly Greg, I think you got it right!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Chao has landed here with his bag of idiotic posts. Gather the women and children and flee....

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

I got it right Barry? Cool.

I am also happy to say that I also know the difference between "your" and "you're" as well

And yes, my floodgates have opened. For good or bad, I now have the same visceral response to some posts as I have towards seeing Eric Gagne on the mound.

This is not good for the mellow memorabilia side, but I had to get it off my chest.

I think I need help...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Greg- "your" and "you're" is the number one transgression on this board. I've gotten to the point where I just ignore it. You can't keep beating a dead horse.

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Posted By: leon

Flood gates can open and they can close......

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Posted By: peter chao

Leon,

Thanks for saving me from the viscious mob.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter, your spelling error notwithstanding, you didn't understand what Leon was trying to tell you?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Peter, I think you ask a lot of good questions. If you can keep the extraneous stuff to a minimum you'll get much more satisfaction out of these forums.