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#301
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: jay behrens
Greenies weren't taken every day, just when you played a night game and then had an afternoon game. They were also taken, as pointed out, when the drag of the season started slowing you down. They weren't an every day thing, but they give players an advantage that players before them never had. |
#302
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted
OK, I really didn't want to further this discussion, but now I must. |
#303
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: howard
the percentage of players who took greenies? If, at it seems from what I've heard, everyone took them do you think that negates the advantage that any one player got from them? If so then taking greenies is a far cry from using steroids which I'm sure a large number of players have never used. |
#304
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Al Crisafulli
Even if 100% of the players took greenies (which I wouldn't doubt), I don't think it negates the advantage. Mostly because I don't think amphetamines give you an advantage over other players - I think they gave players the ability to play hard in games where they otherwise may have dragged through, or not even played. |
#305
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: jay behrens
I wasn't thrilled when they named Mitchell either. Just Selig is far from an impartial commissioner, Mitchell is going to be far from an impartial head of this investigation. Putting someone who has an interest in a team means that most likely there will be little or no investigation as to the culpability of the owners and the commissioner in this whole mess. |
#306
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
Jay, |
#307
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: jay behrens
We can just think of our blank posts as this threads version of steroids, making it bigger than it really is |
#308
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Al Crisafulli
I do think it makes sense to launch an investigation into all of Jay's posts in this thread, as well as all his previous posts. Not making any accusations or anything, but if it's discovered that he did anything that might be construed as cheating, moderator dude should mark post 300 in this thread with an asterisk, and consider wiping all the rest of his prior posts off the board. |
#309
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: jay behrens
We could bring in Kooz to head up the investigation. Even if you delete the bump posts, I would still have post #300 |
#310
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Cy
You ponted out that greenies may not have given the player an advantage. Others made this comment too. I am using your post because it is the most recent. |
#311
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Al Crisafulli
Cy, I guess I wasn't very clear with my last post. I think Barry Bonds is the greatest player I've ever seen, I think he's a sure-fire first ballot HOFer, and I can't wait for him to break Aaron's record. Simultaneously, I do believe Bonds used steroids, and I support baseball cleaning itself up. |
#312
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Brian
Multiple sources told CNN that a federal grand jury has been hearing evidence for more than a month about whether Bonds perjured himself during his Dec. 4, 2003, testimony. CNN reporter Ted Rowlands told ESPN Radio on Thursday night that it took a month for the network to get corroborating sources for the story. |
#313
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: jay behrens
If they go after Bonds for perjury it will be a huge joke. Palmiero perjurs himself in front of congress, on tape, and they claim there isn't enough evidence. |
#314
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Mark Rios
..figured I waste more time by writing something to extend this worthless thread. |
#315
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
And where is he today? Barely hanging on to his .300 lifetime BA @ .2997; soon to relinquish his .600+ slugging average in the quest for the holiest of holies. And if he achieves that pinnacle will he be half the man his predessesors were? |
#316
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: jay behrens
even if he gives all those things up, to him it will all be worth it if he gets the HR record. Besides, most people aren't going to think any less or more of him if he had retired before the season or if stays around and breaks the record. Opinions about him are going to be the same, regardless. |
#317
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Jay, I think a perjury case against Bonds is much easier to prove than one against Palmiero. While Raffy claimed under oath that he had never done 'roids, his positive test occurred after his testimony just leaving circumstantial proof that he had actually lied before Congress. I'm also unsure how many independent witnesses exist against Raffy who could testify that at the time he testified before Congress he was doing steroids. Bonds, on the other hand, while not having a positive test has a plethora of witnesses and documentary proof that suggest that he was doing steroids at the time and before he testified before the Grand Jury that he had never knowingly taken 'roids. Also, for what it's worth, the baseball hearings before Congress - while causing all that testified to take an oath - were not nearly as serious as the Balco/Conte Grand Jury. In addition, Bonds has the tax/money laundering criminal issues that may also be part of the same indictment should charges ever be brought. My general feeling is, as a defense attorney, that lying under oath during a Congressional hearing on steroids in baseball hardly shakes the foundation of our society; but evading taxes, laundering money and lying before a Grand Jury does have a grave impact on society. That being said, in my opinion, unless the Feds have the goods on Bonds with the tax and money laundering issues, no indictment will result against Bonds because I think the Feds were ultimately not stymied by his purported perjury in the Grand Jury (everyone they wanted to indict was indicted it would seem) and Bonds surely is being punished in ways that no ordinary perjurer would be, i.e., his treatment by fans, press, etc. |
#318
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Mark
Gilbert, I'm sure Bonds appreciates your worrying about his lifetime stats. Are you worried about Mike Piazza as well who is batting just .214 with one home run? |
#319
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
I found Piazza interesting until he played against the United States. |
#320
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: jay behrens
Some interesting tidbits from a SABR-l post: |
#321
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: jay behrens
I just had to resurect the longest thread ever I had to pass along this post from the SABR-l list about Bonds v Clemens: |
#322
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
Jay, |
#323
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Anonymous
-- |
#324
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
Back up there a ways, Judge Dredd talks about MLB and their anatomy. He had the thumb correctly located. He omitted mentioning that they were sucking their thumbs at the time. |
#325
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
In Jay's defense, I think we can all agree that Clemens is as selfish and greedy as Bonds and probably at least as much of a liar. That being said, though Clemens' head seems to have grown 4 sizes during his career there is no real evidence that he cheats, unlike Bonds. I really don't want to bring this thread back to life...but living in NYC and watching Bonds play here the past two days has made my stomach turn. And Clemens' recent desire to come back as a 'Stro simply because he wants to "win" when his other suitors were all teams in first or second place, ahead of the 'Stros, is equally nauseating. |
#326
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Spencer
Someday soon, Bonds will break apart, and melt into the field. AAAHHHHHhhhhhh |
#327
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
And when he melts down out there, the Superfund and EPA folks will have to come in and clean up the hazardous chemicals... |
#328
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Dustan Hedlin
Oh man. I don't think I can read through 326 posts, so pardon me if this has already been mentioned. Will baseball actually be able to put an asterisk next to Bonds' HR total unless he was found to be using steroids after 2003? Since they weren't officially banned until 2003, couldn't he have shot up in the dugout in between innings without being punished by baseball? |
#329
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: jay behrens
Judge, youa re thinking too small. I'm gunning for 500 posts for this thread |
#330
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Jim Crandell
I apologize in advance if this has been mentioned but the most interesting piece I have ever read on this is by Asher Chancey on Baseballevolution.com entitled The Bagwell Conspiracy where he traces steroid use in baseball to Jeff Bagwell. His subsequent writing is also interesting. |
#331
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: PC
Here's a direct link. |
#332
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Josh K.
If you actually believe that article, Ive got some swamp land in Florida you might be interested in purchasing. |
#333
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: JimCrandell
Josh, |
#334
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Josh K.
Hey Jim, |
#335
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: JimCrandell
Josh, |
#336
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
Right now, Clemens is #2 in lifetime Ks, But he is being continually pressured by the Big Unit - who will pass him this year unless Clemens returns. |
#337
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: jay behrens
The whole Jason Grimsley situation should prove very interesting. As Jason Stark's article pointed out, he is baseball's worst nightmare as far someone coming forward about this because he has literally been just about everyone's teammate. |
#338
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: jay behrens
This is way too funny. Very Onionesque |
#339
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: T Engle
Jay, |
#340
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Cat
There sure doesn't seem to be a lot of information about the Grimsley investigation coming out. |
#341
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
I really think that it was more the juice in the ball than the juice in the players which caused the HR barrage. Afterall, owners have been adjusting the game to maximize attendence since they decided that the pitcher's "mound" should be moved all the way back to 50'. |
#342
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: jay behrens
I can't believe that people are whining about the journalists that exposed this whole thing are going to to jail for shielding someone that broke the law. I am all for exposing corruption ect. but if the reporters are breaking the law to do so, then they are no better than the law breakers that they are trying to expose. If the laws get change to allow jouranlists to do something like this, then great, but under current laws, what they did was against the law and they should be doing jail time for it. |
#343
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Rich Mueller
Jay.. |
#344
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Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
Posted By: Bob
Rich- This isn't a whistleblower scenario. These guys knowingly broke the law by accepting secret grand jury testimony and using it. The fact they profited by selling a book laced with that information only makes me feel more strongly that they deserve to be punished by a civil contempt for refusing to reveal their sources. |
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