Sorry John, JK

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Posted By: E, Daniel

The last thread was locked before I had opportunity to respond to your posts.

Regarding the "Moderating on the board" thread:

I probably failed miserably to seperate the sentences in a way that would make sense.
Wonka, I was referring to your defence of James' earlier post, and trying to point out that even while respecting your statement that he is a good and loving parent, James' post (in parenthesis) displays less stellar thoughts and beliefs.

JK, the statement in parenthesis was clearly made by James, and I was trying to draw your attention to it when you questioned whether anyone had said anything resembling racist attitudes in this thread.


Daniel

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Posted By: James Feagin

Nevermind.

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Posted By: peter chao

Daniel,

It's nice of you to apologize, it's a civil tone that I don't hear too often in this forum. But I think Leon is right, it's time to lock this thread a second time.

Peter

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Posted By: Steve M.

I disagree and have emailed you privately regarding your last post.

P.S. I don't think the thread should have been locked up. BTJM

Edited to say I am referring to Peter's last post on the locked up thread.

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Posted By: James Feagin

Exactly, and apologizing while casting dispersions on my thoughts is not cool. Reasonable people can disagree, doesn't mean I should be branded a racist when I am anything but.

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Posted By: John

Good stuff, and point taken. No need to apologize, you have every right to voice your opinion regardless of my take, that’s the whole point.

Cheers.

John

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Posted By: E, Daniel

James: "Protected groups can say anything, and if it so happens to cross the line, then no worries, they can simply apologize. Their historic oppression has entitled them to not be responsible for words they may utter. Non-protected groups have to monitor themselves and if they cross the line, there's hell to pay, an NO apology can take it back or make ammends. "

"Protected groups"? "Non protected groups"? This statement boldly paints one person's understanding of the world he lives in, that he feels not part of a larger grouping called human beings and universal rights and wrongs, but instead segregated groupings whose experiences are so different he is mystefied by their brutalized journey into society's grudging acceptance.
You can taste the very distaste and disapproval in the words, and gnawing injustice he percieves.

Makes me sick. Same way people talk about "the jews in holliwood and how they run everything" even as they follow up with "not that there's anything wrong with that, you've got to give them credit for being so creative and ingenious at coopting all that power..".
Or on gays and "their lifestyles", and how many white christians truly believe in their soul that these 'people' are only getting what they deserve and gods corrective punishment.

For me, anytime you seperate yourself from understanding injustice that would be injustice in your own world every-bit-as-much as it is in someone else's, you add a grain of intolerance and hate into this world.
Just because justice doesn't come equally to all people at all times, doesn't mean you shouldn't believe that it must at every opportunity it can.


Daniel

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Posted By: John

James on a more serious note, I defended you as father, so in a way I tossed myself on a web grenade for you.

Is it safe to assume I will get a 20% discount in all up coming auctions??

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Posted By: leon

The last thread needed to be locked, imo. I got the answer I was looking for. Someone has to make the call and I did.....I will let this one go if anyone needs to get anything off their chest....thanks again...

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Posted By: James Feagin

Never talk politics or current events with somebody who seems to fly of the handle on a whim. I'm an observant person. I like to use my perceptions and formulate viewpoints about the world based on what I see. That doesn't mean I personally subscribe to those perceptions, but comment on how the the world (aka society) operates. I love media criticism and am fascinated how it molds and shapes public opinion, that is the standpoint from which I speak. For the record though. You have zero idea how I truly behave. You have zero idea what I believe. You have absolutely no idea with whom I associate. You have absolutely, completely and utterly no idea what is in my heart. I deplore injustice, I deplote hypocrisy, and I equally deplore those who don't know how to debate politely or see the other side of an issue.

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Posted By: John

Wow the lack of response James speaks loud enough…can we perhaps agree on 12% discount

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Posted By: James Feagin

10% is the best I can do John

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Fair enough James. But you didn't explain that the words that I have re-posted as your statement, was in fact a media perception to which you yourself do not ascribe.

That might have helped, though to be brutally honest - those words were a follow up to an earlier thought you had in the thread.

James: "Not that I agree or care what Imus said, there are just a bunch of people that feigned offense at his comments so they wouldn't be thrown under the bus by association. They really weren't offended, it was just convenient for them professionally to be so"


So you don't agree with the Imus comments, but you also don't really care that they were made? And anyone offended is just being opportunistic, it's not really possible to be seriously disgusted by such words?
I would again suggest that your thoughts on this topic show that you think that the offense taken by all sides was over blown, and not honestly felt.


I also believe I was exceptionally civil, and can only guess at your true feelings and thoughts by what you write.
If you feel differently, then you should perhaps write differently.

Then it would be abundantly clear where you stand on people being openly mysoganistic and racist.


Daniel

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Posted By: JK

Thanks Daniel.

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Posted By: James Feagin

Daniel,

I make you this offer. E-mail me at the above address, I will give you my phone number, and we could discuss this. I bet you would be amazed how much we share. Perhaps I should have stated that beforehand, because my crtiques and sarcastic nature rubs a lot of people the wrong way. I expect everyone else to see what I see, but I guess that's not the way it is.

"Not that I agree or care what Imus said, there are just a bunch of people that feigned offense at his comments so they wouldn't be thrown under the bus by association. They really weren't offended, it was just convenient for them professionally to be so".

I don't agree with what he said, and I don't care in that I won't let it consume my life. I have a family to raise and bills to pay. Perhaps I am immune to it because of my religious preference, I have had hurtful words and persecution heaped at my expense for most of my life. Maybe I've become thick-skinned. I do feel that many of the corporate entities are looking out for their bottom-line and jumping off the Imus bandwagon regardless of how they feel.

Take care,

James

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Posted By: barrysloate

CBS just announced that Don Imus has been fired. Hopefully, that will be the last we hear of him.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

FWIW, I would always prefer things to be left as open as possible. The Jesika jokes were that; jokes. Whether it was a lame one or not is a question of taste. But to whine to the moderator about a juvenile joke at the expense of someone who came in here with a fake Wagner and did not listen to reason on it, come on, a little maturity please.

One observation with regard to lists of relative evils: I hate that form of argument yet we seem to hear it more and more. It doesn't matter whether someone else said something stupid--none of it justifies your saying something stupid. Don't judge your behavior relative to the behavior of someone else; judge it relative to your own standards, ethics, etc.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Adam is right. What Imus said was wrong and hateful and he deserves what he got. That the charge against him was led by race-baiting frauds is not the point. Wrong is wrong is wrong. Hilariously, CBS and MSNBC didn't believe that his words were wrong enough to fire him until the advertising dollars stopped; suddenly, his words were quite harmful to all right-thinking Americans. Imus will be rehired on another station in due time because it's all about the dollar.

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Posted By: Rhys

I think what James is trying to say is basically this. What Imus said was wrong and stupid. But Black artists and performers say similar and worse things every day and nobody cares. At its core Freedom of Speech only pertains to the Government, but shouldn't a racial comment be a racial comment regardless of who says it or what context or medium it is delivered through? I know James pretty well and he is an intelligent man and if he were racist, he would not be one of my better friends in the hobby (see below).

DISCLAIMER, Before anyone brands me a racist or anything like that, I am from a mixed race family and have 8 Black brothers and sisters and am of a religois minority which has been persucuted heavily since its inception.

Rhys Yeakley

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Posted By: John S

Let me begin again (as I stated in the last thread) that the comments that Imus made were wrong. His comments and subsequent firing will spark many debates and ultimately increase the racial tension in this country.

My question, for those of you that remember the outcome, is what happened to Bryant Gumbel after the comments that he made last year?

Comparing these two situations might be an apples/oranges type of debate. Regardless, Gumbel's comments were perceived by many as inflammatory and racist.

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Posted By: James Feagin

"Hilariously, CBS and MSNBC didn't believe that his words were wrong enough to fire him until the advertising dollars stopped"---

Exactly what I was trying to say. It started as a two week suspension and escalated as the advertisers dropped. The jist of what I was trying to say is that shock jocks the world over say as cruel and derogatory things about women, religious groups, people from certain parts of the country, and it is accepted. Absolutely accepted and laughed with, and their parent corporations don't care as long as the money comes in.
James

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I appreciate what you have written James, and the tone in which it was meant.
Having always taken what you've said to be well though out and not overly tongue-in-cheek, perhaps it was I that simply missed a short jab to the general conversation.
Knowing your strong religious feelings, and greatly admiring that you don't make a huge deal out of it when discussing the hobby, I was taken aback originally by the general remarks. That you care about people and their circumstances is important in very many ways, please don't let your skin get so thickened to stop feeling what they feel......

I'm always reminded by a Holocaust story that forms the basis of my need to stick up for the wronged. It's told by a man of the cloth.
When the Nazis came to take the mentally challenged and physically deformed -no one said anything and we hoped it would stop there. When they came for the gypsies - again no one said anything. And when they came for the Jews, even those who knew it was wrong stayed silent and hoped they would be left alone. And when they finally came for the priests and religious leaders who would not give the Nazi party open support, there was no one left TO SAY anything and so they too were taken.

So I always jump at the first sight of racial, religious, and social intolerance, because I know in my guts that one mans hatred or intolerance for a gay person is another mans bigotry to blacks, and such a short hop to my own people who have known the worlds distrust and demonization for a millenia.


Daniel

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Posted By: E, Daniel

To your last comment James. Not I. I don't, I won't, and will teach my children to never accept such commentary.
And you would be surprised with what vigor people in many countries fight
this exact thinking.

Daniel

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Posted By: howard

The comments he made last year regarding all the white athletes in the Olympics were not surprising. Gumbel has made a career of race baiting, first becoming known in the early 70's by denigrating the great and dignified Joe Frazier, as a "white champion in black skin".

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Posted By: John

Daniel,

Lighten up a bit, not all of us here are closed minded clueless people who have no understanding of the world around us. You may not be implying that, but your coming off a bit sanctimonious IMO.

Everyone has a different way of tolerating these things, humor, protest, prayer etc. I’m sure you were speaking out of passion earlier and now. But being a bigot is not against the law, however F***ing someone up as you said earlier is. A friendly word of advice if your going to preach tolerance the above may not be the best way to get your point across.

Not to mention this isn’t probably the place to platform your cause. I would be very surprised if there is any real racist on here, and if there are there’s not much I can do about it other than avoid them, disagree and move on.

Besides the real bad guy here is Joe Orlando look at the money he made of these “Black Exploitation” films….(hint humor is my way of tolerating these things)




Have a laugh once an awhile and understand that you cant cure all the worlds ills.

Best Regards,

John

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Posted By: Cobby33

Intolerance of a certain segment of society based upon their immutable characteristics is much different than intolerance of a certain agenda by a certain segment(s) of soceity being shoved down our throats.

Personally, I haven't noticed any outright "intolerance" or "racism" on this Board. I have noticed intolerance of the aforementioned agendas of certain groups or organizations. These are not based upon somebody's "class" or "race" or collecting habits (ahem), but rather, (in)tolerance of different points of view. Much different, in my view.

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Posted By: peter chao

Daniel,

From the very beginning I liked the fact that you started with an apology, that was a very manly thing to do.

I can see both sides of the issue and I like the way Barack Obama seems to have resolved it. He doesn't make a big deal out of being black, he just boldly soldiers on. To me he's a really gutsy guy.

It doesn't matter if you vote for him or not, I think almost all segments of the population admire him. Of course, I haven't polled people, but I have spoken to quite a few people.

In my mind it's better to take Obama's approach rather than to forever take the role of the victim. Bill Cosby himself challenged black students to do better in school. He had the stature to do so, if a white politician had done that he would have been branded a bigot.

Peter

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think it's okay for a white educator to ask black students to work harder in school. It's positive reinforcement, and nobody loses.

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Posted By: Anonymous

John love that poster! Just made a big bowl of popcorn for round 2 of this endless debate!!!

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Posted By: Cobby33

Question: is there a difference between being a compassionate, tolerant, understanding, human being and being politically correct?

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Posted By: Al S

Wow cobby could it be Sorry John JK has just died a politically correct death! Or did everybody just go to bed!

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Posted By: Cobby33

Excellent question...Did I miss the change to standard time?

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Posted By: peter chao

Cobby,

There's a big difference, Martin Luther King was never politically correct. Him with a handful of others created the standard, others followed along and tried to be politically correct.

Peter

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Posted By: boxingcardman

"what happened to Bryant Gumbel after the comments that he made last year?"

I thought this was about Imus; why are we discussing what another white guy said?

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Posted By: leon

In a CBS poll this morning, with about 5000 respondants, it was close to 2-1 that Imus should not have lost his job. Just as I said earlier yesterday, the repercussions were worse than the remark (which of course was wrong)...Hopefully the spiral will continue the way it is, and should be....I hope public outcry gets Imus back on the air soon.....He made a stupid remark.....The conservative, Larry Elder, analogized the remark to a person saying something in a department store toy section. For those that don't know Elder, he really hit the nail squarely on the head on this subject..The punishment should fit the crime...The apology, which did seem sincere, and the 2 week suspension, would have been perfect, imo...regards

edited grammar

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Posted By: Mike

I wonder how many of the Rutgers team members even knew who Don Imus was, or had ever even heard him speak? I'm guessing none. My wife who is very intelligent, college degree, and the whole bit, had never heard of him. He's just not that important. It was all political. And man, did he hand his enemies an atom bomb.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Ditto here: I listen to a good portion of talk radio and most of that is split between sports and politics. I had heard of the name Don Imus but had never listened to him on the radio and until this week I could not have picked him out of a lineup...

Now that I know what he looks likes, he should look in the mirror the next time he starts talking about someone's looks. He is one ugly "Honkey mofo".

martyOgelvie
nyyankeecards.com

Edited to add first paragarph

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

I think the whole Imus thing is ludicrous. Sophomoric, locker room humor has been his stock in trade for 20+ years. Despite his relatively recent association with the US political arena, he has remained politically incorrect.

Stupid bad taste comment? No doubt. But did Imus really mean for every one of his listeners to think that he was simply expressing his heartfelt belief that all of the members of the Rutgers women's basketball team truly were ugly and sold sex for money? Come on. Did Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson really believe that Imus had the kind of influence wherein that one stupid bit was going to convince millions of listeners to change the way they thought about the Rutgers womens basketball team (if they had any thoughts about them to begin with)? Please - just another opportunity for them to grandstand.

I agree that, in general, the kind of thing Imus said was in poor taste and if it went unpunished could lead people to believe that it is OK to say it. The punishment just did not fit this crime in this instance. If Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton felt so strongly that Imus was a racist, why not really rub his nose in it and punish him by forcing him to use his considerable fund raising skills to raise money for some charity that they supported? Why not challenge him to evolve? Just a thought.

Here's some wisdom from a black journalist at whom Imus threw some jabs in the past: http://www.kansascity.com/159/story/66339.html

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Posted By: howard

I have seen Imus' simulcast on MSNBC a few times and I cannot believe how unfunny the show is. Imus says something "outrageous" and all of his well paid sidekicks cackle like they just heard the funniest joke in the world. They also have some guy who does celebrity voices and he is godawful. But still, Imus and his cackling cronies seem ready to bust a gut they laugh so hard.

I am offended that the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton were able to get Imus fired for a stupid racial comment but I am grateful he is off the air simply because no one should make that kind of money for producing such sophmoric "comedy".

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Posted By: barrysloate

Maybe there are no winners here on either side.

I feel there is too much misogynistic behavior of all kinds in our society, and even more heinous crimes against women in third world countries. Perhaps I reacted as strongly as I did against Imus because he touched a raw nerve.

Plus, I don't find these shock jocks funny or clever. Boorish at best, idiots at worst, is my general impression of them.

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Posted By: JimB

Daniel,
Thank you. I appreciate your comments and insights.
JimB

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Posted By: Mark Evans

I agree with the comments of Kevin Cummings. In addition, in all selfishness, I think the real losers here are the Imus listeners and viewers. For all his wacky and offensive conduct, Imus has a well-honed skill of disarming his guests to reveal something of their true personalities while engaged in informative discussions of the issues of the day. His was a unique show, refreshing in that it wasn't driven by political agenda. A colorful character who's done much good in his life, I, for one, hope he rebounds from this setback. Mark

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

these same sponsors support the rappers that say much worse things. This type of rapping is far from the day it started .I grew up hearing (not listening) a hip hop the hebee to the hebee to the hip hip hoppin you done stop rockin to the rhythm of the boogadabee...what you hear is not a test , iam just rapping to the beat......good honest stuff. This rediculous CRAP now days is a total bad influence to all races. It glamorizes wealth w/o education. No respect to many groups and a total embarassment to women. The children are left with an example that gangsta life is allright. If this werent true, why is it that there is more police being killed then anytime ever.

Sure what Imus said was ignorant, but do we really believe that he had aim in his statment?....if so, what? I think he just slipped trying to be a white Richard Pryor and he is really not that funny a guy. Talking about a nappy head ,what the hell is that on top of his. Maybe this is what I would have asked if I were one of the basketball gals in response to. What he said was just totally stupid and obviously w/o thought. It wasnt nice ,but not the end of the world. They should of all just kicked his ass and this would have been over. How could he see their hair anyway to call it nappy. His reference was more directed to tattoos on kids and the dumb **** fired away ignorantly. If he would have said they looked like thugs with their tattoos, would this have been as bad? His facial features looks like that angry cloud blowing cold wind. Maybe he didnt have his Geritol that day. Then we have Sharpton and Jackson..... anything for political gain. If many would just mind their own business and stay a little sheltered or reserved to just mostly family ,we would have these situations. It seems that nearly the whole world is astray !

I wish some of you kind people would spend some energy on saving those seals, this is something that truly should be BITCHED about. If this doesnt break your heart.....YOU DO NOT HAVE ONE !

HELP THEM !!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Bob

How long before Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton apologize for their tirade against the Duke 3 now that the truth came out that there was no evidence to even charge the 3? Just curious....

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bob, I'm still waiting for Sharpton to apologize to Steve Pagones for accusing him of raping Tawana Brawley. Don't hold your breath.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Al Sharpton is a clown and I remember the Tawana Brawley incident well. But this Imus thing is not about Sharpton; he's just using it as a free ride.

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Posted By: howard

The Tawana Brawley case was small potatoes compared to the Freddie's Fashion Mart incident. In Harlem in the mid-90's a jewish store owner raised the rent of his black sub-tenant. Even though he had done this because his own rent had been raised (by a black church, no less) Sharpton called it an attempt by a rich Jew to drive a small black store out of business. Sharpton organized a massive and lengthy protest against Freddie's Fashion Mart which was the jewish-owned store. Shoppers at Freddie's were harrassed, spit on and occasionally beaten. Some of the protesters were seen to simulate striking a match as if they would burn the store down. Sharpton went on TV several times to whip up the frenzy, at one point saying that they would not stand by while a "brother" was forced out of business by a "white interloper".

Predictably, one of the protesters went in the store and after shooting a few people burned the store down, killing seven or eight people. Naturally, Sharpton was "shocked". Like Imus, he went on several news shows to claim he was not a racist, at least once uttering the classic bigot line, "some of my best friends are white". Mostly, however, he went on the news to say that the attack was not his fault. Sadly, he emerged unscathed and more powerful than ever.

I could load this post with racist quotes from Sharpton but I'd be writing all day.

Howard

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Posted By: paulstratton

It's kind of ironic how Imus's comments are doing more to bring down the "prison culture" of some rap music than anyone else could have done without his remarks. What he said was idiotic and he deserved what he got, but it brought about a discussion that we all needed to have.

On the other hand, is anyone else wondering who put Sharpton and Jackson in charge of speaking for all African-Americans? Was there a vote or something? I missed it if there was. Aren't the people he is trying to bring down his own constituents? Can you say backlash?