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#1
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Matt
Here's a Ruth I submitted to PSA as a crossover with a minimum grade of 4. It didn't make it. I got flamed to death on the PSA board because everyone there said it must have been trimmed. I've looked at it for a long time under bright light and a 10X magnifying glass and I just don't see evidence of trimming. For one thing, it doesn't have sharp corners. Wouldn't it have sharp corners if it was trimmed? Anyway, they are all PSA worshipers on that board so I thought I might get some neutral opinions here. I don't have a photobucket account so I'm posting the URL of the scan. I realize it's only a front view. The only flaw I find on the back is about 2 drops of ink worn off. |
#2
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: fkw
I saw your post on PSA, and I still think it isnt trimmed but its hard to say from a scan. |
#3
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Steve
I got flamed to death on the PSA board because everyone there said it must have been trimmed. |
#4
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Steve
Those 2 drops of ink that you think are 'worn' off do they include any paper loss? |
#5
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Matt
Hey thanks, I still don't think it's trimmed either. I don't know if there's something else they are seeing at PSA. Perhaps they just can't view it well enough through the holder to determine one way or another. Maybe in those cases, they reject it by default. PSA wouldn't offer an explanation. I really think they owe an explanation when you pay $65 for their grading opinion. Joe Orlando said I could mail it back directly to him and he would have it re-examined. However, it's already been out of my posession for nearly a month. I want it back to enjoy for a while. I get really nervous when the card is in the mail. They tried to deliver it today but I was in the shower so they left one of the paper slips to pick it up at the post office on Monday. I'll reexamine it thoroughly again. If I go to the National in Chicago or another show where PSA is doing on the spot grading, I might try again and see if I can get an explanation. I believe that despite what the PSA worshipers think, GAI is not completely incompetent in grading. They may have had a PR nightmare with their recent relocation, but I don't think that affects the grades Mike Baker is putting on the cards. If someone trimmed it, I can't imagine what kind of flaw they were trying to remove since they didn't sharpen the corners. It also measures spot on with the Sports Collectors Digest Catalog dimensions. |
#6
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Steve
Sure will do. |
#7
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: JimB
That is a gorgeous card! I do not think it is trimmed. Unless there is some damage on the back or something imperceptible in the scan (like minor wrinkles), my guess is that its major flaw is that it is in a GAI holder. PSA does not like to grade GAI cards. It does not make sense to me, but... I think if you cracked it out of that holder you would have a legitimate shot at a PSA5, assuming there are no problems that can't be seen in the scan/ |
#8
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Matt
Steve, you were one of the good guys to me on that board and I appreciate it. I specifically looked for paper loss, but could find one. The only place that the ink is missing is the line on the back that reads "This is one of a series..." The "n" in "one" is missing a little ink and it makes it look like an "r" instead of an "n". If PSA grades it down for that, I have no problems whatsoever. It's their standards and they set them. However, I have a PSA 4 Hack Wilson from the same set that's missing a decent sized piece of paper on the reverse. The front of the Hack Wilson is also nowhere close to the Ruth. If the Wilson is a 4, then the Ruth should at least be a 4.5, just as GAI graded it. As for SGC, I've thought of giving them a shot but I'm going to wait a while before doing anything. I've been a lonely man without my Babe, LOL. I'm picking it up at the post office on Monday so I can scan the back then. |
#9
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Matt
Jim B, A lot of people have told me the same thing about crossing GAI cards to PSA due to them being "rivals". However, I don't understand their reasoning. Shouldn't PSA feel honored that I want my card in their holder instead of their competitor's? |
#10
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Red
Your card obviously has a problem somewhere because GAI only graded it a 4.5. Your poor quality picture makes it look better than a 4.5 but it's hiding whatever is wrong with the card. GAI saw something and only graded it a 4.5. PSA saw the same thing and didn't want to cross the card over. SGC will see see the same thing and will grade it according to their standards. Both PSA and SGC would love to put the card in their holder for you if they can. |
#11
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: mike rothstein
Hi Matt |
#12
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
"PSA does not like to grade GAI cards." |
#13
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Matt
Yes, that is the scan that the dealer sent me. When I get it back on Monday, I will try to post some different scans. It's a beautiful card in my eyes. If it has a defect like you described, I don't think it takes away from the eye appeal. My biggest concern was that it had been tampered with rendering it worthless. The only reason I care about what grade it receives is in case I am ever in financial hardship and need to sell it. If it weren't for that reason I would just have PSA apply whatever grade they feel it deserves. Like I said, I'm scared at the thought that I got burned with a card that was altered. |
#14
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Matt
Mike, thanks for getting in touch with SFMays for me. I really want to help him and his boys complete their 1982 Topps set. That's probably exciting for the youngsters. |
#15
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Red
You bought the card in the GAI holder so why not just sell the card in the GAI holder. It wouldn't make sense to cross it over to PSA or SGC if they're going to bump it down a few grades. You bought the card for the eye appeal and hoped for an uppgrade. The next person to buy the card will think the same thing. You've paid PSA twice for crossover grading and now might try SGC. The grading companies must love cards like this. You wonder how many times each one has been paid to grade this card. |
#16
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Matt
Red, your comments do make perfect sense. I'm not considering selling it any time soon. I probably would only sell it if I absolutely had to to pay my bills. The main reason I wanted to cross it over to PSA is that I have a fancy display case on my wall that holds 18 of my favorite cards. 17 of those cards are in PSA slabs and I thought it would look better to have them all match. I know that probably seems like a silly reason to cross it over. |
#17
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Matt, GAI definitely sells at a discount, though it's hard to quanitfy it. Half grade, full grade? Certainly no more than that. If you can't get the card into a PSA 4 or SGC 50, leave it in the GAI holder -- but if you just bought the card you wouldn't be crazy to assume that the previous owner already tried to cross it. |
#18
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Matt
I took it to the National in Cleveland last year and took it to several dealers asking if they wanted to buy it and for how much. I had no intention of actually making a deal unless someone offered me a lot more than I paid for it. Levi's 707 Sports Cards offered the highest. They offered $2,200. I paid $3,300 for it. If Levi would have bought it at $2,200 I'm guessing he thought he could get at least a $500 mark up. I know I probably over paid for the card but I seriously wanted it. |
#19
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Todd Schultz
I agree with those who note that PSA hates to grade GAI cards. If you're convinced that it is not trimmed, crack it out and send it to PSA raw, or maybe send it to PSA with no crossover minimum. |
#20
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Todd's right: some good GAI-graded cards can sometimes be had at a big discount; it's just luck of the draw I suppose but not the greatest of risks to pay PSA 3 money for a GAI 4 card in my opinion. As for cracking it out, will PSA tell you why the card didn't reach the minimum grade requested? If they tell you that the card is not trimmed, what's to lose in cracking it out? |
#21
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Bilko G
Hey Matt, I agree with cracking it out and resubmitting it raw, if you must have it in that PSA holder. As long as you are sure it is not altered in anyway, you have nothing to lose. Personally, I think it looks just fine in the GAI holder, but i can see why you want it in the PSA holder to match the rest of your collections/display. If you are gonna crack and resubmit, I would suggest waiting a few months to do so, as this is a card that would be remembered fairly easily by the PSA graders. |
#22
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Anonymous
There's one big factor with cracking it out and that's the risk of actually cracking it out. There's just no way to do it gently. I'm afraid of damaging it. I cracked a GAI slab on a cheaper card once to see how hard it would be. I got the card out without damaging it but it wasn't easy. |
#23
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: quan
if there's nothing wrong with the back...crack, submit to psa...take the family out to a steak dinner when it comes back a 5. |
#24
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Anthony N.
Cut the corners with tin snips or a dremmel and then pry the holder apart. If done carefully it's not risky. |
#25
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Scott Mt Joy
My last experience with a GAI to PSA crossover was (1965 OPC Clemente Gai 8), sent in as a crossover min grade 7, came back as trimmed. I then cracked and resubmitted and came back a PSA 8. From now on I will crack and resubmit all gai cards, crossovers are a big waste of money to PSA. |
#26
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Steve
My only experience with GAI to PSA was cracking a GAI 1955 Spahn graded 7.5 (1st graded) and it came back |
#27
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Scott, I've had the same experience. A GAI card sent in did not reach the required minimum grade; upon cracking, it was sent in raw and received a grade higher than the previously requested minimum. PSA is wonderful. |
#28
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Anonymous
Matt- With all due respect, you know very little with regard to grading and how to detect trimming. Like Steve, I also never said that the Ruth was definitely trimmed (like Steve said, only 3 people did, not "everyone" like you claim), but there is an inconsistency along the bottom right border that is unmistakeable. You're confusing the opinions of the three people that told you the card is definitely trimmed with everybody else's. Everybody else was telling you that PSA generally doesn't cross over GAI cards in the slab, so either crack it or send it to SGC. |
#29
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Mike Navarro
Instead of the continued hypothesizing and speculation, just submit your card to Kevin Saucier, you can find him on these boards, and determine once and for all if your card has been doctored in any sort of fashion. |
#30
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Anonymous
Crack the ruth out of the GAI holder and put the card in a 1/2 inch holder and enjoy it for awhile. Let a year go buy and need be send it to PSA and low and behold they grade it. Be patient that is the key to success. Grading is just guess work. |
#31
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: steve
Just call GAI to politly ask why the 4.5 grade. |
#32
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Anonymous
CDsNuts, I did some more checking on the Gwynn. I measured both borders left to right and top to bottom. There was indeed a very slight difference. It doesn't directly stand out to my eyes though. The point I was trying to make with my Gwynn card was that if there were any flaws on it, they are nowhere near the point of detracting from the eye appeal of the card. My thread about the insanity of graded cards referred to people who are willing to spend $2225 for a 1983 Topps Tony Gwynn just because it is labelled as a perfect 10 and doesn't have the "huge" defects that my 8.5 Gwynn has. I'm just not that anal retentive enough to be bothered by a card that's half a millimeter off centered. Maybe that's because I mostly collect vintage. With vintage, you're lucky to get a card without a crease running the entire length of the card. Give me $2225 to spend on cards and I'm going to buy Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, or another vintage classic. I guess all of the PSA people really feel that getting that perfect 10 is worth the money. I am positive this gem mint graded craze will fade away and there will be a lot of people wondering why they blew $1000 on a 1984 Don Mattingly. |
#33
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Anonymous
By the way, I know a lot more about cards and how the card market goes through phases than people on the PSA board gave me credit for. Mark my words, while grading will stick around, the high premiums paid for gem mints will die down once people realize just how opinionated grading is. A PSA 8 could be a PSA 10 on a different day and vice versa. |
#34
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Anonymous
I don't think anyone argued with you on that point. But it happens in vintage too when you see what low pop PSA 8s, 9s, and 10s sell for. $30,000 for a PSA 9 '52 Topps card is just as ridiculous as $2,000 for a PSA 10 1983 card. Any idiot could see that the market for rare hi-grade modern cards can't keep up over time. You're not the first (or millionth) person to point that out. |
#35
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Josh
I cracked out 4 cards from Global holders and wanted to cross them over to PSA. I received 2 grades lower on two of the cards and the other two came back trimmed. |
#36
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Steve
I measured both borders left to right and top to bottom. There was indeed a very slight difference. |
#37
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Jim
heck, all of us have been banned from the PSA boards for speaking our mind. |
#38
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Jay Adair
Speaking your mind is one thing. Swearing (the F bomb) and loosely worded threats (i.e Internet tough guy routine) are totally another. |
#39
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Robert Herd
Matt, with all due respect, did you really expect a different outcome when you posted a rant about people paying premiums for high grade PSA cards on a PSA run message board? I feel that you are smarter than that. |
#40
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Anonymous
I got it back today. Here's another view of the front as well as the reverse. I did spot one tiny flaw on the reverse that I hadn't spotted before. I'll see if anyone else points it out before I do. Honestly, I can't get the back to scan any better than this. You will have to take my word for it that the writing is not blurry. |
#41
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Anonymous
Robert Herd, I know you're right. Like I said in one of my posts, I was wearing a Red Sox jersey in Yankee Stadium. |
#42
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Anonymous
How can someone have a scanner that produces an image like that in this day and age? |
#43
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Anonymous
The scanner is an Epson 3590. It did fine with the front but it doesn't seem to want to pick up the back very well. |
#44
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Red
Scan at a higher DPI and don't reduce the quality of the image so much when saving. Crop out the holder and just show the card to reduce the image's file size. Maybe push down on the center of the card while scanning to get card closer to scanner deck. I don't see the breaks at the edges that the other picture hinted at. I'd be worried about the "is one" area on the back. Almost looks reinked. But it might only look that way because of a bad scan. What an advantage the real graders have of actually getting to look at the real card. |
#45
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Anonymous
I've mentioned the "n" in the "One" before. I don't think it's been recolored. If anything it's missing paper. Of course with a crappy scan it's not going to show. My photo hosting site only goes up to 100K so I'm pretty limited with the resolution. I've played around with it and can't seem to get it to look good without ending up with a 2 meg file. |
#46
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Steve
If anything it's missing paper. |
#47
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Red
All the area showing the holder is taking up file space. Scan at a higher resolution and crop out all the plastic. If the file is too big then crop the card in two and post two scans. Then scan the trouble spot on the back at your highest resolution and crop out everything except for that spot. The text kind of looks twisted so maybe the paper is loose in that area. |
#48
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Jay Adair
You got beat for $3k. I would just put it in your showcase and be done with it. Enjoy it for what it is...an authentic 33 Goudy Ruth. |
#49
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Matt Ranson
Steve, even with a 10X magnifying glass I still can't tell for certain whether there is paper missing or if it is just ink. I would have to crack it out to tell. Maybe that was the problem PSA had. |
#50
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What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?
Posted By: Randy Trierweiler
Does anybody else think that these CU post/links make us look like a very dignified mature message board? |
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