E90-1 Series Mystery solved?

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Posted By: Scott Fandango

it is well accepted that the E90-1 American Caramel Series of 100 Subjects (really 120) were issued in three "series" yet its not conclusive which cards were issued in what series....

i believe the answer is found in the corners of each card....

some cards appear to have right angle corners, whereas others appear to have rounded corners (regardless of card condition)...

for instance Howell, Dooin, Jennings, Heitmuller, Sweeney, Bender, Chance and others have right angle corners (traditional sheet cuts) whereas Ellis, Overall Summers, Mcquillan, Bliss, Barry, Jordan, Joss portrait and others, have a more rounded corner (a brand new card was not meant to have right angles)...

if they were cut using different methods, wouldnt that provide the series?

any thoughts?

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Posted By: Marc S.

I would have sworn that the McQuillan I have sports a right angle corner...

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Posted By: peter ullman

very interesting, scott. i've observed this for a while and you may be onto something!

pete in mn

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Posted By: Scott Fandango

this sketch shows the three types i believe exist....the right side example being a "hybrid" of the other two...

the Crawford and bradley, i believe, fall into the middle example group (right corners)

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Posted By: James Gallo

Why isn't this getting more attention? I don't have enough of the rarer cards to get a feel but this would be a really great obseveration and I think important to the hobby.

Where is Tony, I think he finished his set...

James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Matt

Scott - interesting observation; SGC shows several of the cards you have suggested to have rounded corners as being graded as 60s and 70s; I'd love to be able to see some of them to aid the discussion.

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Posted By: Scott Fandango

here is a card im almost 100% wasnt intended to have "right angle corners" ....especially when viewed from the reverse, you can see that the corners all have the same subtle curve to them...

i am postulating that the last 2 series may have been cut with rounded corners, and the first was cut with right angles....

also there appears to be some cards with heavier curves than others (this could distinguish between the 2nd and 3rd series)

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Posted By: Matt

Anyone have a scan of the SGC 70 Upp?

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Sorry guys. Didn't see this thread until now. I've gone ahead and scanned the cards Scott speaks of
and put them into the two groups he mentions above. I also included a scan of the Upp card since it
was brought up. Maybe these pics will help assist in the discussion.
Thanks, Tony A.

Group#1 - **Both Howells, Dooin, Jennings, Heitmuller, both Sweeneys, Bender & Chance**




Group#2 - **Ellis, Overall, Summers, Mcquillan, Bliss, Barry, Jordan, Joss port, & Upp**

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Double post

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I started collecting the E90 cards in the mid-'80s....and, completed this set in the early '90s. Then,
I sold my complete set at the Philly Show in 1998 (big mistake....my Joe Jax was an Ex card, and if
I kept Joe Jax, I could sell it now for the $$$$$ I got for the entire 120 cards.

I have since started a 2nd set, so here are my observations on the E90 cards.

I don't think you can arrive at any conclusion with respect to "rounded" cornered cards vs "square"
ones. And, I'll illustrate this with scans of some of my cards.

Before I get into that, though, the 1st series of the E90-1 set was issued in 1908 and comprised
of 30 (or perhaps 40) cards. The Subjects in this 1st series appear to be most plentiful. Here are
some Stars from this 1st Series......which includes Joe Jackson and most of the Phila. A's, and Cy
Young (Boston).








The 2nd series of cards were issued in 1909 and are somewhat tougher to find. This throwing pose
of Wagner was issued in this series....





Upon issuing 100 Subjects, American Caramel decided to extend this set with an additional 20 cards
that were issued in 1910.
As we all know, these 20 Subjects in the last series were definitely Short-Printed; and, they are......

Clarke (Pittsburg)
Donlin
Duffy
Peaches Graham
Karger
Lobert
McLean
Mike Mitchell (Cinc)
Shean
Speaker
Stahl
Bill Sweeney
Upp
Walsh
CYoung (Clev)

and the 5 horizontal cards....

Brown
Hall
Joss (pitching)
Keeler (throwing)
Seigle

Additional note on this last Series....I've seen many of these 20 cards with "diamond cuts".







Notice how many of these cards are graded AUTH....my point is that there was a lot of trimming go-
ing on with these E90's (prior to the early 1990's). So, to try to determine (nowadays) which cards
were printed in the 1st or 2nd series as a function of their corners, is not really possible.

Here are 3 examples of this....the McGraw (blue CROFTS) is typical of many of the E-type cards of
that era. Oversized and "rounded" corners, of which many were trimmed by collectors to be "square",
such as the Tinker or the Upp cards in this scan.





Guys, it's just my opinion......but, it is based on many years of collecting the E90-1 cards.


TED Z

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Ted states, "I don't think you can arrive at any conclusion with respect to "rounded" cornered cards vs "square" ones."

I have to agree. I have seen to many inconsistencies in certain cards from the set that have the corner angles Scott mentions that could make this philosophy true. Just as Ted states above though, this is simply just my opinion as well. Great observation though Scott. It had my attention.

Tony A.

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Posted By: Scott Fandango

is it possible, that instead of printing 1 series at a time, they printed:

1. the first series (cut one way)

2. the first and second series (cut another way)

3. the first, second, and third series (cut still another way)

that would explain the large amount of cards that are easy to come by- because the 1st series was "triple printed" and the second series was "double printed", and the last series was printed only once....

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Or, the first press run / series was printed and distributed for quite a while. The second series was distributed to a lesser degree. And the third series distributed only a short while before it was stopped altogether.

And do any of you think of Barry when you get to typing and those red lines appear??

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Posted By: Joe D.

I just wanted to point out that to make 'round corners' on purpose you would have to go through some sort of die-cutting process.
This would definitely make the cutting process more costly and slower.

I'm not saying it wasn't done....
but for a free, throw in product - you have to ask -
why the heck would they want to slow down the process and make it more costly?

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Posted By: Scott Fandango

Yes that is true, it would have to be a different cutting process...but nobody has ever seen an uncut E90-1 sheet if im not mistaken....maybe they dont exist....would that open the possibility of all die cut cards?

here is a scan of a beater, but its a beater because it has many creases....the color is great and the edges and "corners" are crisp....it looks to me that this card was meant to have rounded corners....

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Posted By: Joe D.

Scott....

"but nobody has ever seen an uncut E90-1 sheet if im not mistaken....maybe they dont exist....would that open the possibility of all die cut cards?"

I am not sure if you are suggesting that the cards possibly were not printed on sheets?
These cards were printed on sheets. Thats just how things are printed on a printing press.


If we had one of these press sheets, we most likely would still not have any conclusive evidence as to 'round cornering' or 'straight cut'.
The press sheet could look exactly the same for either cutting process.


Its a very difficult thing to prove or disprove with certainty....
the existing cards are our best evidence.
I think a pristine card with pristine round corners would be compelling evidence. Do we have one of those?

In general - if someone is going to theorize that these were round cornered - I would really have to wonder why they would go through the trouble to round corner the cards.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Joe,
I agree... It doesn't make since to make a die that would cut rounded corners, even in the shiny stuff "die cut' age of today... It would cost more and look unfinished... especially in 1909.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Scott Fandango

look at the corners of these 2 cards.....they look awfully similar along the corners...both of these are thought to come from the later series....

is it possible for right cornered cards to wear such as these?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Most of the Caramel cards were printed on 30-card (or 36-card) sheets.

What is so unusual about rounded "die cut" corners ?

That's was done in 1947 with the Bond Bread cards in order to fit them in the bread loaf packages.




TED Z

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Posted By: Scott Fandango

good point!

does anyone have a picture of the caramel candy package these cards were found in?

maybe the American Caramel execs realized the cards were coming out of the package nicked and they wanted to avoid this?

its not like they didnt put thought into the cards..they are each little pieces of art, they obviously cared about the cards, even thought they were "free"....

just look at some of the amazing background colors, undoubtedly gleemed from dusk time ball games!

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Posted By: Joe D.

"What is so unusual about rounded "die cut" corners ?

That's was done in 1947 with the Bond Bread cards in order to fit them in the bread loaf packages."



Ted....

... I don't think I called round cornering 'unusual'.... but since you mentioned it - Round cornering would be unusual for this size and shape card during this particular era. Agreed? I mean are there any other 1910 cards that look T206-ish in shape but have round corners?


... What I did say was round cornering is slower and more expensive. And if someone was to theorize round cornering it would raise the question 'why'. You mention your Bond Bread cards were round cornered to fit into packaging... that sure is an answer to 'why' for Bond Bread - but since we have straight cut, right angle corners for these same cards - I don't think the 'fit in packaging' argument can be made here.


... Look at your Bond Bread cards, or look at 1968 Topps Game cards. The round cornering is obvious. I have to repeat.... the best evidence would be a pristine card with pristine round cornering. All of these examples are worn - making them terrible examples to prove or disprove the round cornering. Find a card that looks like a near mint example with near mint round corners - and then you have some compelling evidence.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I think the corners on E90-1s are round because of the great amount of
wear that the cards suffered.

On that thread with the 1911 photo that depicted cards on the wall, most
of those were tobacco cards, not candy cards. Kids bought candy. Kids
put the cards in their pockets. For those of us who are old enough to
remember collecting as a kid before plastic sheets, we were pretty rough
on our cards. Clothes pins and spokes, rubberbands, in the back pocket
and carried around all day at school, we'd even write on them. These
E90-1s went through hell. Their corners eroded away.

I think that some of the cards were trimmed years ago to get them down
to the size of tobacco cards. And this didn't bother true collectors of
the day. Look back at that Nagy Collection card of Upp. It looked good
enough for Mr. Nagy. And good enough for me today, even if registry guys
would steer clear of it.

Lots of T206s are worn, and have rounded corners. There's a slight skew
to the wear, generally series 460 cards aren't as worn as series 150
cards. Any of them that went from pack to scrapbook page would look good
today. Some cards were handed down to kids, and the cards would wear.
Kids had a longer window to play with series 150 cards than they did
460s... But for E90-1 cards, they almost entirely went into the hands
of kids the moment they were bought. Now who of us today would break an
SGC 60 E90-1 card out of its holder, then give it to a 7 year old to
keep up with for one week????


When I looked at my E90-1s it seemed that I had none of the later cards
that were nice enough to show a square corner. But that's the way the
initial series of E90-1s look, too. So there seemed no point in scanning
them. 4 pages behind my E90-1s in the binder are some WG5 National Game
cards from about 1913... and they have rounded corners from being
die-cut. Die-cut technology was around in 1908. But it was expensive,
more labor intensive, and was not needed for a candy insert card. Until
someone shows some really nice, sharp, round corner E90-1s from the
later issues I'll hold onto the idea that they all started with right
angle corners and kids wore them down.

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Posted By: Scott Fandango

Ted, you wrote: "As we all know, these 20 Subjects in the last series were definitely Short-Printed; and, they are......

Clarke (Pittsburg)
Donlin
Duffy
Peaches Graham
Karger
Lobert
McLean
Mike Mitchell (Cinc)
Shean
Speaker
Stahl
Bill Sweeney
Upp
Walsh
CYoung (Clev)

and the 5 horizontal cards....

Brown
Hall
Joss (pitching)
Keeler (throwing)
Seigle
......................

but werent the cards printed in groups of 30? wouldnt that make thirty "toughies" in the last group?

maybe you can add the other Cinn players, Bemis, Bescher, Fromme, Lobert...and other consensus "toughies" Keeler Red, Donlin, Lajoie, Overall, Dougherty, and Wagner throwing...that would give you 30 ....

i think the first issue may have been 60 cards, the second 30 cards, and the last 30 cards....

what do you think?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

1st.....My answer to your ?....is that I cannot identify 30 Subjects in in the 1910 (last)
series.
In my first post here I noted....."the 1st series of the E90-1 set was issued in 1908 and
comprised of 30 (or perhaps 40) cards". I said 30-card sheets because we have seen a
complete uncut E93 sheet. And, most of the Caramel sets were printed in the greater
Philadelphia area by the same printing firm.

However, I've studied the E91 set (also American Caramel), and I think it was printed on
36-card sheets. Since the E90 set immediately followed the E91 set, the E90 may have
also been printed on 36-card sheets.

That would give us 108 cards, of which 8 were Double-Printed (DP) in the 1908 and 1909
series. The 1910 series, I maintain, only consists of 20 different Subjects. They were most
likely printed on a 36-card sheet (and, within this sheet there had to be 16 DP's). However
like most any other last (or High #) series these 20 Subjects were indeed Short-Printed.

Now you raise a interesting question regarding these 3 Subjects. They are tougher than
most E90's.

Bemis (Clev).....possibly in the last (SP) series
Bescher (Cinci).....possibly in the last (SP) series
Fromme (Cinci).....possibly in the last (SP) series

and these three....I have already identified them in the last (SP) series

Donlin.....I'm not certain of Donlin, and we may substitute one of the above 3 Subjects.
Keeler (Red-horiz-NY Giants)
Lobert

Finally, Lajoie, Overall, Dougherty, and Wagner (throwing) were not in the 1910 series.
But, were most likely in the 1909 series whose cards are less available than the 1908
series.

TED Z

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Posted By: scott fandango

Ted, i know you are one of the most knowledgable people in regards to e90-1, so i fell honored to have this discussion with you...

i have been studying this series intensely over the past year or so, and i believe i may have something to add...

the specific color backgrounds and the central figure artwork may tell us the tale.....

many of the 3rd series cards "look" different then the first 2...maybe they hired a better artist, or improved their printing machines, but subtle differences are there.....

we already know that they added 5 horizontal cards to this issue, but they also added unique backgrounds.....

for instance, they added the bright yellow (mitchell) and added a detailed background "fence" in the Tris speaker...

i would like to add a few cards that may have been included in the third series...not only does artwork play into these observations, but Pop Reports AND past sales via VCP have been considered....

i believe Bliss, O'Conner, Gibson Back View, Richie (Boston), Leach (Throwing), Howell (Windup), Stone (left hand showing), were printed in the third series...



by addidng these names, it would give you 30 cards for the 3rd series...

one tricky one is Fromme...he was a Cinn Player, and one may assume he was included in the 3rd with all the other Cinn players, but the background, pose, pop report, and sales report, point to this card being in the 2nd series......Is it possible they included 1 Cinn player in the 2nd series?

more to come.....

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'm not sure that I am...."one of the most knowledgeable people in regards to E90-1". But, thanks for the kind words.
However, I have studied the E90 and E91 sets for years. With respect to the difference in colors of the last series vs
the 1st & 2nd series, I'd say that you are on to something.
Here are my observations....American Caramel printed the last series mostly with solid (pale) colored backgrounds, as
compared with the active poses and artistic, colorful backgrounds of the 1st & 2nd series.

For instance.....the same Reddish-Orange background color on CYoung (Clev), McLean, Leach (throw), Gibson (back),
Chance, Bescher, and Bemis. This particular solid color is not found in the earlier series.
Note, I have added Chance to the last series, instead of my earlier pick of Donlin. Donlin was in the 1909 series.

Then there is a repeated pale Orange-Green (with fence) background on Karger, Lobert, and Shean (also not found in
the earlier series).

The Green backgrounds in the earlier series are a deep color, while the last series cards have a pale Green....such as
Bill Sweeney and Upp and many of the cards with a partial Green.

An additional factor in determining the Subjects in the last series is team representation. For unknown reasons the two
Boston teams and Cincinnati were virtually unrepresented in the set until the last series.

And, Subjects such as Duffy, Karger, Keeler (NY NL), Shean, and CYoung (Clev) are obviously in the 1910 (last) series
reflecting team changes late in 1909.

So Scott....I might be convinced to modify my thinking to include 30 cards in the 1910 series (consistent with 30-card
sheets).

However, American Caramel originally intended 100 Subjects (as adv. on the backs of these cards)......rather than 120
Subjects.
That is basically why I have always considered 20 in the last series.

Anyhow, if we concede that there are 30 Subjects in the 1910 series, how does this list sound......

Bemis
Bescher
Chance
Clarke (Pittsburg)
Duffy
Fromme
Gibson (back)
Peaches Graham
Karger
Leach (throw)
Lobert
McLean
Mike Mitchell (Cinc)
Richie
Shean
Speaker
Stahl
Bill Sweeney
Upp
Walsh
CYoung (Clev)

and the 5 horizontal cards....

Brown
Hall
Joss (pitching)
Keeler (throwing)
Seigle

Need four more ? ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Scott Fandango

A few things...not sure Chance should be on the list...his card is easily found, and fits the "mold" of a first series card....i believe its very similar to the Dygert card (same background basically)....

which reminds me....the alphabet is very important, IMO on figuring out the series....for instance the set of cards Barry, Corridon, H Davis, G Davis, Jordon, and Lumpley, ALL have the same 3 color "dusk-like" background, a glorious combination of Blue Red and green....these i believe, were released in the second series.....


now back to the third series...i would add the following to your master list : Remove Chance and Fromme (fromme are readily available and it shares the same background as Camnitz, Howell and Irwin ---all from the second series i believe)

Add Dougherty (matches 3rd series artistic design with red background)

Add Bliss (Unique DARK RED backgroundand has very small Pop report and sale frequency)

Add O'Conner and Gibson Back View --- first time the tools of ignorance are on display...3rd series type artwork.....low pop reports and low sale freq

Add Leach Throwing....Unique orange background, low pop report and hardly any recent sales

Add Stone (left hand) and Howell (wind-up), to second poses that are hardly seen for sale.....

thoughts.....

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Posted By: Scott Fandango

maybe its just me, but i cant see how this card was meant to have right angles...

it seems clear that it was meant to have rounded corners....

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Posted By: Marc S.

Your argument only points out to myriad very low grade examples. Joe D. was right earlier in this post....all you would need to evidence your argument is a pristine-condition card that had pristine rounded corners. This, to my knowledge, has never been encountered, despite potentially thousands of E90-1's hitting the auction circuits over the past 24 months. Until that can be identified -- your hypothesis in my humble opinion does not hold water.

M

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

I really don't think you will need a pristine card to make the determination....an Ex may do.

As you know, corners rounded by handling and use will be worn from the start of the curve to the end and eventually flattening out to an edge.

Corners that were factory cut with a rounded edge will generally show wear on the outer-most rim(?) of the corner...but the start of each curve, beginning and end, will show a natural factory cut leading up to the corner.

A simple 10x inspection of a decent corner or a close up side pic should tell all.

Just my thought.


Kevin

------------------------------

www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: scott fandango

1...high grade cards of this issue DO NOT EXIST...so we wont ever have a"pristine" card to make a judgement on......



2. when a card is worn over the years, especially due to children and not adults buying them, the wear will not be equal on all 4 corners...i corner will show more wear and damage than the others...

look at that Duffy....there are only maybe 20 graded examples of this card, and all are in 40 or less condition...How can you explain the exact same corner "wear" in all 4 corners...seems very unprobable, almost impossible that all 4 would wear at the same rate to show the exact same curvature....

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

when a card is worn over the years, especially due to children and not adults buying them, the wear will not be equal on all 4 corners...i corner will show more wear and damage than the others...

look at that Duffy....there are only maybe 20 graded examples of this card, and all are in 40 or less condition...How can you explain the exact same corner "wear" in all 4 corners...seems very unprobable, almost impossible that all 4 would wear at the same rate to show the exact same curvature



Exactly!




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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: Anonymous

i have a e90-1 stone with no hands the corners are rounded but a nice card is this normal for these cards? it also has on the top and one side it looks like a cross in faint black do you know if this is normally seen on these cards?

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

You can see how the corners wore on Ty. Some of those E90's look different but others exhibit telltale wear.

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Posted By: Scott Fandango

i think you can clearly see the difference between that cobb and the Duffy....

the cobb's corners are all not at the same angle....Plus you can see the corners are the most frayed part of the card, with the edges almost lifting up at the "corner"....

the Duffy has corners that are as clean as the edges and show no sign of fraying...also they all follow the same angle...

thanks for posting!

we may get somewhere after all....

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Posted By: Ed Hans

Scott,
While many interesting theories have been advanced in this thread, your rounded corners theory is not one of them. This is all you should need to dispel any notion that some E90-1s were cut with rounded corners. Note particularly the Summers and Duffy and compare them to those posted in this thread. Best of luck and keep the thoughts coming.

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/set.aspx?cat=1&set=250&userset=128>#

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Posted By: peter ullman

After looking at numerous e90-1's on the registries and ebay...as well as some of mine...I also believe they were all cut w/square corners. Granted...many are/were miscut...and come in a large variety of sizes...I believe the rounded corners were from use/wear as has already been stated...they were geared towards kids and handled by kids.
pete ullman

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Here you go guy....a square cornered E90 Tinker from my set. This was once a graded card that I cracked out of it's plastic
capsule.
It was graded a "4" (Vg-Ex).






TED Z

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Posted By: scott fandango

this has been an interesting thread....it doesnt hurt to ask questions and put forth a hypothesis...after all , none of us were around when these cards were issued so we can only speculate....

Now it time to get back to figuring out the series for this set...

Ted, have you any thoughts on my proposed additions to the 3rd series?