Identify an Old Mill

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Posted By: John V

I spotted a 5X7 1910 Old Mill card on eBay. Can someone tell us more about this issue? Value?

Search 1910 Old Mill. It is newly listed.
Thanks, John

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Posted By: Jason Carota

Hmm. Looks like a 1910 H801-7 Old Mill cabinet. The two checklists I have do not include Luyster (Fayettville.) He does have a T210 Series 7 card, though. new find maybe? Hopefully someone else more knowledgeable than I about this issue can chime in.

EDIT: spelling

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Posted By: Tim

Everything looks like an H801-7 Old Mill Cabinet though Luster isn't on any checklist I can find.

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Posted By: leon

It is in fact an H801-7 Old Mill....An unlisted one doesn't surprise me. It is no different than many other very rare sets in that they have players not found yet...Even the 2009 Krause says it left numbers for players not yet found..Since very few go for the full set of these I wouldn't place too much more value on an uncataloged player........Here is a link and one to compare it to...


http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-BASEBALL-CARD-1910-OLD-MILL-CIGARETTES-5-X-7_W0QQitemZ160315273529

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Posted By: Adam Baxter

Edited to stop the frenzy. This is why I hate posting here.

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Posted By: barrysloate

No question about it.

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Posted By: Zinn

Especially if one has access to VCP.

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Posted By: Ken

Hey I'm the one that has this card up on Ebay.I started it at $19.99 and has gone to $200.00 in less than 24 hours.It is on for 7 days so take a look.It's item # 160315273529.

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Posted By: leon

Good luck with your auctions. Do yourself a favor and don't end them early...A real nice one like the one I showed is about a 4k-5k card. You might want to thank the original person that posted this thread too. He did you a favor .....

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Posted By: barrysloate

Yes Ken- you will have no problem generating interest.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Again... it is an auction, not some sort of hide-and-seek spy game, if this is deemed to be outing, I congratulate everyone for doing it!!

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Posted By: Ken

Ok,I am new here at Network 54.Again I am the one with the Luyster cabinet card.What are y'all talking about the "outing" of this card or auction?

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Posted By: Tim

Ken-

Welcome to the board.

When someone "Outs" and auction it increases attention to an item that may have otherwise gone unnoticed, thus increasing the number of bidders and driving up the price of the item.

I'm on the fence about this issue, but understand why it bothers some.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Hi Ken,

Not to worry, "outing" an auction isn't meant to imply anything negative about you or your item.

There is -- or at least there used to be -- an unwritten rule on the board that folks wouldn't post links to eBay auctions that had not yet ended. That was because sometimes an item might be listed in a wrong category and collectors who spend more time and effort searching eBay might see it, whereas someone who didn't do the "legwork" might not see it. Posting a current auction also could lead to an outbreak of folks "outing" an auction of a card they own or have a financial stake in -- a fact that often is overlooked.

Anyway, as mentioned previously, it has nothing negative to do with your card or you as a seller.

Good luck with the auction.

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Posted By: Ken

Thanks Tim,I have one other question."Zinn" said something about having access to a VCP?
Excuse me for being dumb.

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Posted By: Don

VCP is Vintage Card Prices. It's a paid subscription website that gives you access to data on prior sales of vintage cards. Good for researching how much cards have sold for to determine current value.

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Posted By: Ken

Like I said I am new to this blog.As I start to learn the lingo and the unwritten rules I hope I can be part of it.I don't know if I should ask this or not but I'm sure someone will let me know.You all seem to be very knowledgible of the hobby.What is you opinion on stoping the auction and getting the two cards graded.I have had some tell me I should and some to tell me with the condition of the cards it could even hurt the value.
Just asking.
Ken

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Posted By: dstudeba

Hi Frank,

Please post your wantlist so I can carry it around in my pocket and whenever I find a card on it on eBay, an auction house, dealer inventory, friend's collection, card shop, antique store, or flea market I will give you a call to make sure I don't buy a card you would pay more for. My time, knowledge, and legwork has no value and I wouldn't want you to have to do any work. Thanks in advance.

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Posted By: Dave F

Ken-

I think you'll do fine with them not graded. The first one for sure should just garner an "authentic" grade and not a numeral grade, I'm not so sure about the second..but it's also low grade at best. I'd probably let things ride at this point.



Frank-

You seem quite happy everytime an auction is "outed". How often do you "out" the things you find? Surely your not keeping your own secrets?

Just curious.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Dan,

You're obviously a fan of the "hide-and-seek spy game."

On a more serious note, I'll be e-mailing you my contact info to make it easier the next time you come across a Lajoie card or piece of Indians memorabilia that you think I might like.

Thanks in advance.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ken- because of the condition problems the Old Mill cabinet will get a very low grade. But there's an excellent chance that the winning bidder will send it right in to be slabbed. You can go either way with it, but since the auction is in full swing, I wouldn't close it.

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Posted By: Ken

Want to thank everyone for there input,info,and opinions.
get back with you this afternoon to see what else I have stirred-up.
ken

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Posted By: Don

I wouldn't close the auctions just because you may lose a bidder or two next time around. Some people are put off by auctions that end early and might think you sold it offline.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Let's be honest, guys...

Outing an auction is good for the seller, he is more likely to get a good or fair price for his item.

Outing is good for everyone watching the auction, we can see where the price is driven by the bidder's wants and desires.

Outing avoids some windfall gain to a bidder who has an idea of the true value of something, but has found a seller who may not be aware of the true value. Folks deserve a fair price for something they're selling.


Yes. I'm in among those that see nothing wrong with outing an auction. Some jurisdictions have criminal statutes that deal with theft by deception, and that could be construed in certain situations to apply to someone buying an old cigar box of T206s, American Caramels, and Cracker Jack cards from a little old lady for $10, where she had no idea of the value of the cards. Golly, if you had a $1200 card and listed it so that collectors didn't find it but for one guy who did and he bought it for $20, knowing it was worth $1200, how would you feel? That isn't right. Outing avoids a seller getting cheated.


Ken, I think you have enough knowledgeable bidders after that card, some who won't issue a bid until 2 or 3 seconds before auction's end, that you'll get a fair price for it. What was said up there about ending an auction and relisting it is correct, you'll lose some bidders if that is done. I think you'll do well with this card.

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Posted By: dstudeba

Theft by deception of an auction that ends cleanly on eBay? Wow, words escape me.



Prevents a seller getting cheated? This is just more victim mentality that is pervasive in this country. Isn't it the seller's job to learn the value or publicize the auction?



How would I feel? I recently sold a card on the BST in 4 minutes. Four minutes later I had another offer on it. That night I got an disappointed email from a friend who needed the card and wished I had let him know I was getting rid of it. He also wanted to offer the buyer a good deal more for it. I felt angry at myself for not knowing the value of my item, leaving money on the table, and overlooking a friend. I was a victim of my own stupidity, that is how I feel.

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Posted By: Dave F

Frank-

I actually think that it's absurd to think seller's should be entitled to get the value of an item they are selling. If you go with that mentality then maybe Ken should split half the winngings with wherever he got that cards from?


Doesn't make any sense.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

How could a fella feel good about buying something at a 'steal' of a price, when he knows what he's buying and he knows the seller doesn't know?

If a seller knowingly gives you a good deal, then that is fine.

I'll try to give folks about a fair price for something, and the anti-outers out there can continue to try to keep the wool pulled over a seller's eyes. I'm not saying an anti-outer pulled that wool there, I think the seller did it himself, but the anti-outer knows the wool is there nonetheless.

We just seem to have different perceptions of what is fair, right, and how folks should be treated... I'm not inclined to take advantage of a situation where I know more about something than the other fellow, and when roles are reversed I'd like to think the other fellow would take care of me.

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Posted By: ErlandStevens

Do sellers ever feel bad for me when I overpay? I doubt it.

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Posted By: Rob D.

If I wanted to take advantage of a way that other people could do the legwork and spend the time searching for items that I might want to buy and then post those items on a Web site to alert me, I'd certainly try to come up with as many reasons as possible to further the concept.

"Let's be honest, guys."

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Ahhh, but if you're an informed buyer and you know you're overpaying, then it is ok... it is all about the information.



I've overpaid for cards because I really wanted the card. But then I don't buy a card because of its value, I buy it because of the history of the set, the card, the player... for collectible aspects of the card.



I don't whine when I overpay, I chose to make that overpriced purchase.

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Posted By: martindl

Frank,
Re "prevents the seller from getting cheated" - are you saying you only pay 'retail' for your purchases, because surely anything less than that is cheating the seller.

If you happen across say a Piedmont 42 back but win the card at a Piedmont 25 back price, do you tell the seller to charge you more lest "they'll be getting cheated"? Of course you don't and why would you. You just gladly pay your 25 back price happy in the knowledge that because you knew about the 42 back and no one else saw it, you just got yourself a bargain.

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Posted By: Dave F

Well Frank, if I'm understanding correctly-



An N167 John Ward pops up for sale on ebay with a BIN of $1,000. You see it immediately and click on it. You then decide the seller didn't know any better and you need to offer an additional $35k to even things out because you want to be fair to the seller.





You're a better man than I.

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Posted By: Matt

I don't share Frank's view that a seller lacking knowledge could make the buyer liable of theft, but I do not have any problem with a potential buyer "outing" a listed item on eBay in order to ask an honest question, which is what happened here. This board should be a resource for those to learn more about the cards we collect - if someone has a question about an item they are interested in purchasing, they should feel comfortable asking the board for our collective knowledge. If another board member wants to keep the knowledge for himself, that is his choice, although a community only thrives when you take AND give back.

Rob correctly pointed out that this is a slippery slope that opens us to people posting about their ongoing eBay auctions in order to drum up interest, which is certainly problematic, although it's not terribly different from the practice of people starting threads on a card or issue after having consigned that card to major auction.

My Trade/Sale Page

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Ok, anti-outers, think for a moment...

I posted trying to congratulate the guy for posting in the first place, where his posting had been questioned because someone considered it 'outing'.

I did not post trying to convert or condemn the anti-outers.

But a few anti-outers seem to have taken issue with my position. Why the hostility? Why be afraid of an informed market, an informed community? Don't we visit this site for information??

So if you're against outing, by all means hold onto your beliefs, and continue to buy from unwitting sellers, and keep quiet about your bargains until the card is in hand (to boast after sending Paypal might result in the seller wising up, refunding your payment, and selling again, so wait). I'm not whining because you guys are against outing and want to play the hide-and-seek game. So please don't whine when someone does post asking a question about a card offered for sale.

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Posted By: Don

"I don't share Frank's view that a seller lacking knowledge could make the buyer liable of theft, but I do not have any problem with a potential buyer "outing" a listed item on eBay in order to ask an honest question, which is what happened here. This board should be a resource for those to learn more about the cards we collect - if someone has a question about an item they are interested in purchasing, they should feel comfortable asking the board for our collective knowledge. If another board member wants to keep the knowledge for himself, that is his choice, although a community only thrives when you take AND give back."

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Posted By: Rob D.

Frank,

There was one post from someone bemoaning the fact that a question was posted and that it might have "outed" the auction. The majority of recent posts are in direct response to your stance that the more auctions that are posted and linked to, the better.

I understand you don't like someone challenging your opinion, but at least acknowledge that's what happened here. You're the one taking heat, not John (the original poster) or Ken (the seller).

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Posted By: dstudeba

Here are your original congratulations :

Again... it is an auction, not some sort of hide-and-seek spy game, if this is deemed to be outing, I congratulate everyone for doing it!!

How do you feel taking advantage of an uninformed poster? The original poster did the legwork to find the auction and made the mistake of posting it to the world. Now they have much more competition. Maybe instead of congratulating them it would be more helpful to tell them about the search function. Both searching "Old Mill Cabinet" and "Old Mill Large" on Net54 would have identified the piece. But then that would have continued the hide and seek game which doesn't help you.

Both you and I (and many here) feed ourselves and our families based on knowledge and information we have taken years and money to acquire. You might be about free love with baseball cards but the generalizations and condemnations sound hypocritical.

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Posted By: JohnnyH

I think the main point being missed is that there are still cards out there yet to be known, that is exciting news. Information is information, I understand that some are upset they now won't get a deal on this card, get it slabbed and turn right around and sell it for more but that is the price of technology. How can anything be 'outed', a final price is a final price. Congrats to the seller on his find, he should get a fair price for being the one to discover it, whether he knew what he had or not. Unless the board is deleted this cannot be avoided.

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Posted By: John V

Okay, I'm good... Thanks!

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Posted By: Jason Carota

I agree with Don. Matt, your post is excellent.



Can the Net54 community truly "out" an auction that can be found using such a common search string? How many collectors outside of this board use the string "1910 Old Mill" on eBay multiple times a day? I can understand if the auction title was something like "Vintage basball [sic] photo pic." That may require some work to find.



Not trying to ruffle any feathers here. Just my two cents.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

The item technically was listed in the right category, but it's definitely not the category that would get the most views and thus was somewhat hidden...however I don't think these cabinets would have gotten past the big guns. Judging from the responses in the this thread I think it's fair to assume that Dan S. had already seen them....I can guarantee you he wasn't the only one with snipes already set.

I am generally against "outing" ebay auctions and this probably kept me from commenting on a fake Joseph Hall cabinet last week until it ended.