MISSION 95% ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 460/42 ovpt subset

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I have acquired Cobb and White from Net54ers and Bender is pending.

My goal here is to complete the 55-card run from the 350/460 Series with the Sweet Caporal 460
Factory 42 N.C. Overprinted backs. I currently have 51 (or 52) of these cards.

In researching this Overprint back, I've come across some good stuff that you T206 "junkies" might
find interesting."

In early 1911, American Tobacco Co. (ATC) ceased production at their New York plant(Factory 30).
Anticipating their impending break-up.....ATC transferred their NY Sweet Caporal production to the
L&M plant (Factory 42) in Durham, NC.
Approx. the same time, ATC's American Beauty and Piedmont production at the Richmond, Virginia
plant (Factory 25) was also transferred to Factory 42 in NC.

American Litho. selected 55 Subjects from the 270 cards in the "350" series and extended them in
to the 460 series. They printed a lot of these cards with the Sweet Caporal 460 Fac. 30 N.Y. back.
This large stock of these 55 Subjects with the Factory 30 back, however, were never issued, since
this NY plant had been closed.
Instead, American Litho. overprinted the "Factory 30...." line with a scroll and added on the bottom
of the Sweet Cap. backs...."Factory 42 4th Dist. N.C.". Then these overprinted T206's were ship-
ped down to the Durham plant, where they were inserted into the Sweet Cap. packs in early 1911.





The offset scroll on this card's back reveals a glimpse of the original Factory 30 N.Y. printing.



If my Factory 30 research is correct, it also explains why the LENOX and UZIT backs are very rarely
found on these 55 Subjects in the 350/460 Series. They were short-printed due to Fac. 30 closing.





Checklist......350/460 Series......55 cards

Ames (hands above head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)..................pending
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands).............need
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (yellow sky)................need
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (bat)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding).................need
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)


Thanks to Net54er's who have helped me acquire cards for this sub-set

Any help in finding these last 3 remaining cards is greatly appreciated......

Jennings (two hands)
Overall yellow sky)
Sweeney (fielding)


TED Z

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Posted By: RayB

Ted - Wow. That's amazing stuff. Great progress and "Sweet" research.
RayB

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Posted By: Jason Carota

Great post again, Ted. I think I may have an addition (recent pickup) - or I could be completely wrong

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Posted By: Rob G

Hi Ted,
I can confirm these 3 cards. Needham, Schlei(portrait), & Wiltse( portrait). Keep up the good work.

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Posted By: Tim

Ted,

Am I correct in understanding that your subset of Factory 42 OP backs are only the players that appeared in the 350 and 460 runs and does not include the 460 only players with Factory 42 OP backs?

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Manning

Ted:


Seen these?



Hummel, Brooklyn



"Happy" Smith, Brooklyn

Despite the lousy scans (sorry) they really are SC Fac 42 overprints, not on your list.

Bob

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Posted By: Tim

Every card that has been posted or mentioned not being on Ted's list is a 460 only player if I'm not mistaken. And Ted's list is of players in both the 350 and 460 runs.

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Posted By: Jason Carota

Oops. I think you are right, Tim. I read the post twice, but managed to confuse the title with Ted's actual goal. Sorry Ted!

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Posted By: barry arnold

Congratulations, ole friend.
Your research and subset acquisitions continue to be amazing!

all the best,

Barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob G

I think the cards I posted are all 460's also, sorry Ted. I do have a nice copy of Wiltse(pitching) that I will trade to you to make up for my mistake.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

No problem.....I intend to follow up this 350/460 subset by collecting the Factory 42 overprints for the 460-only Series.

Thanks for your inputs of the 460-only cards.

A complete run of Sweet Caporal 460 Fac. 42 overprints should approach 109 cards......

55.....350/460 series

48.....460-only series

..6.....6 super-prints


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Manning

Tim, and others,

It's hard to read "My goal here is to complete the 55-card run from the 350/460 Series with the Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 42 N.C. Overprinted backs" in any way other than a few others (and I) have done. I showed two cards from the 350-460 series with Factory 42 overprints. That they were also not to heve appeared in the 360 run isn't really made clear. They are, after all, Factory 42 overprints of the 360 series. Even "This large stock of the 55 Subjects with the Factory 30 back, however, were never issued since this plant was closed" doesn't quite do it, since there's no casual way of knowing what was and what wasn't released as a Factory 30. Other heading for Scot Reader's exhaustive research, and, of course, that's what I finally did. While Scot's research is truly amazing, it took a bit of looking to find what was included in the 460 series only. And even Homer nods.

Sorry Ted. But hey, the night is young. I'll mess up a few more times before midnight!

Bob

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You questioned......
""This large stock of the 55 Subjects with the Factory 30 back, however, were never issued since this plant was closed"
doesn't quite do it, since there's no casual way of knowing what was and what wasn't released as a Factory 30."

It is a fact.....we do know that NONE of these 55 cards in 350/460 series have ever been found with a Sweet Cap 460
Factory 30 back.

Therefore, we can safely conclude that Factory 30 in NY stopped its operation (circa 1911) at the time when Sweet Cap
cigarette production was transferred to Factory 42 in Durham, NC.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Manning

Ted:

"it is a fact." Well, sort of. What really is a fact comes next: "We do know that NONE of the 55 cards in the 350/460 series have never been found with a Sweet Cap 460 Factory 30 back." But the professor in me would like to point out that this is what's called an empirical truth, one drawn from observing one instance many times, and then by generalizing. "All crows are black" is like that. We've seen tens of thousands of crows, and all of them have been black. But the first polka-dotted crow that stumbles past is really gonna mess up that Fact real bad.

Similarly, the first card within the 350/460 series to be found with a Sweet Cap 460 Factory 30 back is gonna mess up that Fact real bad. So do we really know that every card in the 35/460 series will lack a Sweet Cap 460 Factory 30 back? Probably, but not conclusively. There are too many "polka-dotted" T206s out there to ever be sure of it. I was looking for one, and had thought I'd found it. And as I'm sure he'd be the first to tell you, not even Scot Reader has seen all the T206s in the world.

No offense taken, and certainly none intended.

Best,
Bob

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

I can't be said enough, thanks for sharing all your research Ted!

You are the man, now that is a FACT!

marty

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Posted By: Craig W

Hi Ted,

Great work! I'm curious though as to why you're not including the six 350/460 Superprints (Chance Yellow, Chase Blue, Chase Dark, Cobb Red, Evers Chicago, Matty Dark)?

Best Regards,
Craig

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You offered......

" I do have a nice copy of Wiltse(pitching) that I will trade to you to make up for my mistake. "

Thanks, but I did find one.

Regards,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Well, I'll start by saying I'm not a professor....however, I have taught Radar, Analog & Digital electronic systems
as a 2nd profession for many years. But, the engineer in me appreciates the statistical facts here, and not what-
ever "empirical truth" that you are alluding to.

Before, Scot Reader and I, and any one else currently analyzing the T206 cards, there was Burdick, Carter, Buck
Barker, Frank Nagy, Lew Lipset, Irv Lerner, Larry Fritsch and Bill Heitman ("The Monster") that together have seen
at least a Million T206's.

And, guess what guy, NONE of the regular issue 55 Subjects in the 350/460 Series have ever been reported with
a Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 30 back. But, we know that these cards were printed; and, my point here was to
simply convey to the reader of this thread what did happen to the cards printed with the "30" back.

But, you are skeptical, and you feel that one (or some) Factory 30 card(s) will eventually show up ?

Well, I'll bet you a nice steak dinner that a 350/460 series card that came from a Sweet Cap cigarette pack with
a 460 back will NEVER be found with a Factory 30 back.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

That is a great question; and, I will relay to you Scot Reader's brilliant observation on these six super printed cards
that he recently shared with me.

Scot observes that it would be more appropriate to classify these 6 cards as 350-only Series subjects and 460-only
Series subjects. This is evident by the fact that these 6 cards are found with backs associated with these two dis-
tinct series.

The 6 super prints were printed with certain backs not associated with the 350/460 series; therefore, to classify the
6 super-prints as 350/460 series Subjects is not consistent with our knowledge of the T206 back patterns.

In some respects, you can view the 350/460 series' 55 cards as a unique group of T206's.

I could go into more detail if you are so interested; but, I would rather defer to Scot since it is his theory.

Hopefully, Scot will chime in here on this.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I have brought up my 350/460 Series thread in order to provide a better understanding for this thread.

If there are any questions regarding the complexities of the 350/460 Series, please don't be shy in ask-
ing them ?



TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Sorry, that I didn't respond to this earlier......
"Am I correct in understanding that your subset of Factory 42 OP backs are only the players that appeared in the
350 and 460 runs and does not include the 460 only players with Factory 42 OP backs?"

Absolutely right....I have always been intrigued that the 55 cards in the 350/460 Series were NOT printed with the
SC 460 Factory 30 back. Yet the 48 cards in the 460-only Series are printed with the SC 460 Factory 30 back.

I have a theory as to why. The timeline is such that the 460-only series cards were printed sometime in the latter
part of 1910 (prior to ATC stopping production in their NY Factor 30). The 460 portion of the 350/460 Series was
issued in early 1911. By that time, Sweet Cap production had been transferred to Factory 42 NC.

I hope I have presented this clearly.....if not, ask away ?


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks to Barry Sloate, I am significantly closer to completing this Sweet Cap 460 Fac 42 overprint sub-set. I just
acquired from Barry the Cobb (bat off shoulder). What a great relief when you can check-off your wantlist a tough
T206 front/back combo as this one.

But really, just another great acquisition from Barry since 1983. Just in terms of T206's here are some highlights.....

1984......Extremely rare Carl Lundgren with an EPDG back (I've only seen one other since then)

1985......My first DRUM back....we had a bet and Barry lost this bet by selling me this card

1990's....Several large lots of T206's

2006......262 diff. T206's....all with Sovereign backs (Cobb's, Johnson's, Matty's, Young's, etc)



OK guys and gals....I still need these 5 cards......

Bender (no trees)

Jennings (two hands)

Overall (yellow sky)

Sweeney (fielding)

White (pitching)


Any help finding these cards with the Sweet Caporal 460 Fac 42 overprint back is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Manning

Ted:

This ok?



Bob

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Posted By: Tim

Ted-

The easy answer would be that as Factory 30 was coming to a close they had 350/460 series cards and some newly printed 460 only series cards that were sent to Factory 42 and received the OP. Then Factory 42 continued on with a new run of 460 series cards without the OP.

If I'm understanding you, you think the OP's from the 350/460 series were done at a different time than the 460 Only series. Am I correct? If so I would love to hear your theory.

*Edited for spelling.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted said: "Well, I'll bet you a nice steak dinner that a 350/460 series card that came from a Sweet Cap cigarette pack with a 460 back will NEVER be found with a Factory 30 back."

Ted--you better confine your statement to 350/460 "REGULAR PRINT" subjects, as the 350/460 SUPER PRINT subjects ARE possible with SC 460/30. I know you know that and I know what you meant to say, but others might not.

Just trying to save you a steak dinner, my good friend!

And, more generally, Ted is right that the six 350/460 SUPER PRINT subjects have a back profile that is a essentially a composite of the back profiles of the 350-only subjects and 460-only subjects, except that these six subjects do not appear with American Beauty 460. The 55 350/460 REGULAR PRINT subjects have a much more limited back profile, except that these 55 subjects uniquely appear with American Beauty 350 no frame.

Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks guy....I must qualify that my bet only applies to the Regular 55 Subjects in the
350-460 Series.

Speaking about steaks....when I'd travel to Denver there was a Steak House there that
my contacts at AT&T took me to. They insisted that I dress up with tie and suit jacket.
As soon as we were seated, I heard these cowbells and two pretty gals approached me.
With a large scissors they cut my tie in half, and.....sang a song to me saying that I just
won a free 20 oz steak dinner.

That was 22 years ago, do you know if this restaurant is still in Denver ?

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

If I knew of that place I would be a regular!

Scot

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Posted By: ScottDango

GREAT WORK TED, but your needed in the other end of the store...E90-1 are calling!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Upon cutting off your tie, they would give you a certificate for the free steak dinner.
And, I don't quite recall, but they had some kind of registry system that prevented
you from getting more than one freebie.

Another great eating place that we used to frequent was at a log cabin style lodge
in the mountains near Boulder. I recall eating out on a deck and the deer would not
be shy about approaching you from behind the evergreen trees, and expect you to
feed them.
This restaurant was one of the favorites the guys I worked with in Denver, as they
served up some really great wild game dinners.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Art M.

Hi Ted,
Just catching up today on the T206 threads. This one is very interesting, as are all of your T206 threads!
I have gone through my Sweet Caporal, 350-460, factory 42 overprint and found this one for you:
Doc White, pitching.

Give me a couple days to scan this and Im sure we can work something out.
Art M.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

No scan necessary, guy. I'm not too fussy regarding the cards in these T-brand sub-sets.

Just email me when your Doc White card is available.

Thanks much Art, I really appreciate this.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Have no fear, guy....my mind can switch in Milliseconds from N162's to E90's to E91's to
T206's to 1933 Goudey's to 1934/36 Diamond Stars to 1941 Play Ball's to 1949 Leaf's to
1948-55 Bowman's to 1952-57 Topps to 1959 Fleer Ted Williams sets; and back to N162's.
These are my favorite sets and I can talk about them for hours.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I have acquired Bender, Cobb and White from Net54ers....need only 3 more.

My goal here is to complete the 55-card run from the 350/460 Series with the Sweet Caporal 460
Factory 42 N.C. Overprinted backs. I currently have 52 of these cards and I'm looking for 3 more.

In researching this Overprint back, I've come across some good stuff that you T206 "junkies" might
find interesting."

In early 1911, American Tobacco Co. (ATC) ceased production at their New York plant(Factory 30).
Anticipating their impending break-up.....ATC transferred their NY Sweet Caporal production to the
L&M plant (Factory 42) in Durham, NC.
Approx. the same time, ATC's American Beauty and Piedmont production at the Richmond, Virginia
plant (Factory 25) was also transferred to Factory 42 in NC.

American Litho. selected 55 Subjects from the 270 cards in the 350 series and extended them in
to the 460 series. They printed a lot of these cards with the Sweet Caporal 460 Fac. 30 N.Y. back.
This large stock of these 55 Subjects with the Factory 30 back, however, were never issued, since
this NY plant had been closed.
Instead, American Litho. overprinted the "Factory 30...." line with a scroll and added on the bottom
of the Sweet Cap. backs...."Factory 42 4th Dist. N.C.". Then these overprinted T206's were ship-
ped down to the Durham plant, where they were inserted into the Sweet Cap. packs in early 1911.




The offset scroll on this card's back reveals a glimpse of the original Factory 30 N.Y. printing.



If my Factory 30 research is correct, it also explains why the LENOX and UZIT backs are very rarely
found on these 55 Subjects in the 350/460 Series. They were short-printed due to Fac. 30 closing.





Checklist......350/460 Series......55 cards

Ames (hands above head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands).............need
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (yellow sky)................need
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (bat)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding).................need
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)


Thanks to Net54er's who have helped me acquire cards for this sub-set

Any help in finding these 3 remaining cards is greatly appreciated......

Jennings (two hands)
Overall yellow sky)
Sweeney (fielding)


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Manning

Scot:

"Just trying to save you a steak dinner, my good friend!" Thanks a lot -- I'd already ordered that dinner, pending the impossible, when you show up to close a possible loophole. By the way, steak juice and aroma, mushrooms and onions are leaking through that loophole even now. But the steak ain't gonna make it.

And yes, I offered to trade Ted my Bender (no trees) (see several posts above) for any similar card in Ex-mt condition, no matter the back. He's agreed.

Happy Valentines Day one and all. Spend the day kissing your wives and sweethearts, but try to keep each from seeing you with the other.

Bob

"If ever I depart this vale, and you wish to remember me, pardon some poor sinner and wink at a homely girl."

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Sorry, Bob--I guess I didn't have your back on the steak dinner thing.

Ted--I think the Boulder restaurant you're talking about is the Flagstaff House. It's still there and doing okay from what I hear.

Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

SCOT R

Flagstaff is what we called the restaurant back in the 1980's. Thanx for reminding me;
and, it's nice to hear that it is still doing business.


BOB M

If you are looking for another Bender (no trees)......I have an extra one to trade with;
but, it's only an un-graded Vg-Vg/Ex card.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thank you for this Ty Cobb card with the tough Sweet Cap 460 Factory 42 Overprint back.

Jackie Gleason said it the best......"You're the greatest"







OK, that's a "biggie" into my sub-set....and, these remaining 4 to complete this 55-card run.


Bender (no trees)

Jennings (two hands)

Overall (yellow sky)

Sweeney (fielding)


Any help finding these is really appreciated.

Thanks,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Glad I could help, big guy!

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Last plea....I need these 3 cards to complete this tough Sweet Caporal 460/42 overprint sub-set......

Jennings (two hands)

Overall (yellow sky)

Sweeney (fielding)


Any help finding these is really appreciated.

Thanks,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Interesting card. This one shows Factory 30 and Factory 42.

Rick

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Posted By: barry arnold

Rick,

that's very interesting. The printer sure missed his mark trying to hide
the 30 on that one, didn't he?!!

best,
barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Yes, it looks like the overprint and the Factory 42 designation are both about 1/8 of an inch too low.

Rick

[Archive]

Posted By: Art M.

Here is another odd Sweet Caporal 350-460 back with the scroll. Both factories 30 and 42 can be seen on this one too. A pretty interesting error and I have never seen another Sweet Caporal back like this one. I no longer own this card. (The front is Chief Myers, portrait).
Art

[Archive]

Posted By: Rick McQuillan

It looks like the sheet may have been put in backwards.

Rick

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Art,
why did you let that one go?!
that's a very interesting and most unusual anomaly methinks.

best,
barry

[Archive]

Posted By: boxingcardman

Another very impressive knowledge dump here, guys!

I've had a couple of the "missed the mark" overprints through the years. Just a pure printing flaw but interesting.

What is the board's feeling on the relative rarity of the overprint back compared to other backs from the set?

What premium, if any should be attached to the overprint back and to the Factory 30 back?

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc