1965 Topps Series 6 semi-high Sheet Reconstruction

[Kevvyg1026]

Are you sure that is not a Brave or Red Sox next to carlton? Might be dark green

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Are you sure that is not a Brave or Red Sox next to carlton? Might be dark green

You’re right, I was thinking the Mets and Senators are dark green but it’s actually the Red Sox and Braves who are dark green.

[deweyinthehall]

.

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Here's an interesting one, the card to the right of Rowe is an Oriole/Astro, the Orioles and Astros are Rowe, Grote, Owens, Siebern, Nottebart, Orioles Rookie Stars, Stu Miller, and Nellie Fox. The only 4x cards out of those eight are Rowe, Owens, and Fox, it obviously can't be Rowe and Owens is a header card, so that means it has to be Fox. That makes a big run of Geiger-Locke-Ellis-Piche-Rowe-Fox-Cloninger-Angels Rookie Stars (Egan) on a 4x row. This would also eliminate Nellie Fox from being the seventh header card. ETA I have since figured out that cannot be Nellie Fox to the right of Ken Rowe so that eight card run cannot be correct.

I think it has to be either Grote or the O's Rookies, despite his low counts - hear me out.

All the other gray cards are either 1) on the left edge, 2) have a known card that ISN'T Rowe to their left, or 3) have pop counts even lower than Grote.

I just finished putting together a '65 set and both cards, but especially the the Orioles Rookies, command a lot of attention and a price higher than the player depicted would suggest. I think there is reason to believe that either, but again especially the O's Rookies, could be a high demand card to the point of making its pop counts seem lower than that of a typical 4x card.

Thoughts?

[Cliff Bowman]

I think you’re right, even though Grote doesn’t have large quantities he could very well be a 4x, this is his first solo card and he was a very popular ‘69 Met. I don’t think the Orioles Rookie Stars card with Davey Johnson and Paul Blair is a 4x because it might be the lowest quantity card in the whole series.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

I just completed a 65 set and will be creating a page at my site on the set soon. For these reasons, I thought I might as well jump into the 6th series rabbit hole with you guys.

I found this Wills card today and Deans. By my figuring, the only cards that could be beneath him (Pirate/Yankee with dark at the top of the image) are Freese, Law and Howard. It can't be Law because of the reverse, and while it is very hard to tell in slim miscuts like this, I don't think you can see Freese's bat. In that case it could Howard.

This would make Wills a LE card because I think Howard was declared a LE card earlier, but I can't find where that came from. It also says he's at the top of one of the slits?

Thoughts on who is below Mr. Wills?

I think I am wrong about the Indians Rookie Stars being the 7th and final header card, I now think Ted Wills is the 7th header card. That would make Elston Howard the card under Wills on the miscut. I have been puzzled why I could never find a miscut showing the top of the Ted Wills back, if he is a header card that would explain that. It didn't make sense for Wills to be above Freese because Wills is obviously a 3x and he didn't fit in being on the same row as Boyer and Pavletich because they are 4x cards. If Wills is the 7th header card to go along with Stu Miller, Bob Priddy, Jim Owens, Ed Mathews, Joel Horlen, and Elston Howard the question is who is the third 4x header card to go along with Horlen and Owens. I now believe that is Wills under Mathews on the miscut. ETA Dewey was right and I was wrong.

[deweyinthehall]

Concur all around - so the LE cards then are Mathews, Owens, Howard, Priddy, Horlen, Wills and Miller.

Miller and Wills are clearly 3x, and Horlen and Owens are clearly 4x.

The remaining 4x candidates are Mathews, Howard and Priddy. Mathews and Howard's counts are low, and if they were commons I'd give the 4x award to Priddy even though his counts don't seem to me to be clearly in the 4x range.
But they aren't commons, so supply could simply be low due to demand.

I think we need to find horizontal miscuts of one or more of these three to tell for sure.

Thoughts?

[Kevvyg1026]

The counts on Priddy aren't that far below those of Mota, Ron Locke, Yankees TC, so he might be a 4x

[deweyinthehall]

This Howard popped today on ebay - to his right lies a red-bordered card. At first I thought it was a Yankee or Pirate, but when I blew it up, it seems clearly red.

The only candidates which aren't already known to have a match on their left sides are Aguirre, Hoeft, Kennedy and the Tigers Rookie Starts. All of these, plus Howard, are in the 3x range, so none can be eliminated that way.

You can't see any traces of the adjacent card on the reverse - I thought I saw a couple spots that might have been black ink - below the 499 run total and under USA in the copyright, but I think they are both effects of the edge itself.

Looking at Hoeft, Aguirre and Kennedy - they all have writing which might be able to be seen. The Tigers RS reverse lettering all begins lower on the card than those three, so I tend to think the card next to Howard is Tigers RS.

Thoughts?

[Kevvyg1026]

Do you think it is possible that it is a checklist? One of the checklists is supposed to be in column 2 if the patterns from the other series were followed.

[deweyinthehall]

I hadn't thought about the checklists. I compared, and the white portion of the checklist is closer to the card edge than the black text on the rookie cards, so my suspicion is still Tigers Rookies Stars.

I think it's ultimately too close to call though, so I'm not going to place it.

[deweyinthehall]

Found this Battey on eBay today. I thought for certain I'd be able to ID the card above him, but after several attempts I keep coming up empty. The likeliest candidate may be Cloninger, but there'd be more black ink on the Battey side. See what you think...

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Found this Battey on eBay today. I thought for certain I'd be able to ID the card above him, but after several attempts I keep coming up empty. The likeliest candidate may be Cloninger, but there'd be more black ink on the Battey side. See what you think...

It can also be Nottebart, Ellis, Horlen, or Azcue. ETA I noticed that it lines up with the center of the baseball and Cloninger is the only one that does so you are probably right.

[deweyinthehall]

Found this Gagliano with an Oriole or Astro to his left.

I have Gagliano as an all-but-certainly 4x.

These O's and Astros I have as likely or certainly 3xs so they would not be candidates: Grote, Miller, O's Rookies, Nottebart, Siebern.

These likely or probably 4xs could be his neighbor:
Rowe, Owens, Fox.

Sadly, none of these can be take out of the running automatically because we don't have any of them paired with anyone to their right yet.

Thoughts?

[Kevvyg1026]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Found this Gagliano with an Oriole or Astro to his left.

I have Gagliano as an all-but-certainly 4x.

These O's and Astros I have as likely or certainly 3xs so they would not be candidates: Grote, Miller, O's Rookies, Nottebart, Siebern.

These likely or probably 4xs could be his neighbor:
Rowe, Owens, Fox.

Sadly, none of these can be take out of the running automatically because we don't have any of them paired with anyone to their right yet.

Thoughts?

I show Fox with Cloninger to his right. I have Owens with Harrelson to the right. And, even though the counts on Grote suggest he might be a 3x, those counts may be deflated because he is/was a popular Met. I think Cliff possibly put Grote to the right of Rowe.

Gene Stephens, a definite 4x, has a black card to his left (Yankees TC) and a black card to his right, which might be Gagliano.

65 6 cloninger.jpg

[Kevvyg1026]

However, this is pretty strong evidence that it is an Oriole or Astro next to Gagliano. So perhaps it is not Harrelson next to Owen, but rather Gagliano? However, to me, the trademark location on the Gagliano miscut looks more like that on the Grote card, not those on the Rowe or Owens cards.

1965_503_gagliano_left.jpg

[Cliff Bowman]

[QUOTE=Kevvyg1026;2526061]I show Fox with Cloninger to his right. I have Owens with Harrelson to the right. [QUOTE]

I think I am wrong now about Harrelson being to the right of Owens. It probably is Owens to the left of Gagliano, Owens has a black border card to his right. I will have to go back and look at all of the possibilities tonight.

[deweyinthehall]

I don't think I'd seen that Deans Gagliano with the exposed edge on the reverse. I think it has to be Owens - counts suggest it strongly, and if you look closely at the blue/white border on the adjacent card, there is a slight defect/bump right where the curve begins that seems to be consistent with other Owens cards I've seen.

If true, this places Gagliano, Allen, Angels Rookies 517 and Mota in column 2, and we have Cardinals Rookies in #3.

[Kevvyg1026]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

I don't think I'd seen that Deans Gagliano with the exposed edge on the reverse. I think it has to be Owens - counts suggest it strongly, and if you look closely at the blue/white border on the adjacent card, there is a slight defect/bump right where the curve begins that seems to be consistent with other Owens cards I've seen.

If true, this places Gagliano, Allen, Angels Rookies 517 and Mota in column 2, and we have Cardinals Rookies in #3.

When I match the resolutions for the back of the Rowe, Owens, Grote, and Gagliano MC, it appears to me that the trademark location on Owens matches that on the Gagliano MC perfectly.

Now, the problem I'm having is that either the Angels RS is not above Gagliano, or else, the Fox-Cloninger-Angels RS run, which I thought was solid, is incorrect.

Also, a checklist should be in Col 2, if the pattern of every other slit was maintained, as described below.

In series 1, col 2 had check 2, Col 11 had both checklist 1s.
In series 2, col 2 had check 2, col 11 had check 3
In series 3, col 2 had check 4, col 11 had check 3
In series 4, col 2 had check 4, col 11 had check 5
In series 5, col 2 had check 6, col 11 had check 5,
In series 7, col 2 had no check, col 11 had check 7

So, I expect that in Series 6, col 2 will have check 6, col 11 check 7. The check 6 variation in series 6 should be the one with the "full m" shown on the back near card 481.

[Kevvyg1026]

I have the 7 header cards for this series as (# in parentheses):

Horlen (480), Owens (451), Mathews (500), Howard (450), Priddy (482), Miller (499), and Wills (488).

We also have 2nd column cards:
Mota (463, next to Horlen),
Gagliano (498, next to Owens), and
Richie Allen (460, under Gagliano, perhaps next to Mathews).

So, we need 4 more col 2 cards. There is a sliver of red next to Howard, which might be Tiger RS, and I speculate that check6 is also a column 2 card, based on prior printing patterns for the 1965 set.

I have not seen any right side miscuts for Miller, Priddy, or Wills.

At one point, it was suggested that Angels RS was above Gagliano, but that can't be accurate if the Fox-Cloninger-Angels RS run is correct. Can someone post that Angels RS card miscut?

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I have the 7 header cards for this series as (# in parentheses):

Horlen (480), Owens (451), Mathews (500), Howard (450), Priddy (482), Miller (499), and Wills (488).

We also have 2nd column cards:
Mota (463, next to Horlen),
Gagliano (498, next to Owens), and
Richie Allen (460, under Gagliano, perhaps next to Mathews).

So, we need 4 more col 2 cards. There is a sliver of red next to Howard, which might be Tiger RS, and I speculate that check6 is also a column 2 card, based on prior printing patterns for the 1965 set.

I have not seen any right side miscuts for Miller, Priddy, or Wills.

At one point, it was suggested that Angels RS was above Gagliano, but that can't be accurate if the Fox-Cloninger-Angels RS run is correct. Can someone post that Angels RS card miscut?

There are two different 4x Angels Rookie Stars in the 1965 6th Series, one has Egan and the other has Schaal. The one with Egan is to the right of Cloninger, the one with Schaal is above Gagliano. I have Gagliano under Angels Rookie Stars (Schaal) and Gagliano above Richie Allen, I don't have anything else connected to Angels Rookie Stars (Schaal), Gagliano, or Allen.

[Kevvyg1026]

Well, that's pretty conclusive that Angels RS (517) is above Gagliano and is in Col 2. I show Owens below Horlen, who is a 4x, but has Mota next to him. However, I also have Owens under Priddy, so perhaps Priddy is the other 4x card and Schaal is the col 2 card next to Priddy??

[Cliff Bowman]

I’m not convinced that Gagliano is to the right of Owens although it is very possible because Owens has a black border card to his right and Gagliano has a Astro/Oriole to his left and they are both 4x. I think it is still possible that Grote or Nottebart are to the left of Gagliano.

[deweyinthehall]

Found this today - Niekro is a right edge card.

Is this the first confirmed right edge card we have? I don't have any others yet besides Niekro.

[Kevvyg1026]

We've had niekro as a right edge card for quite a while since he's a wrong back of Elston Howard. Vern law should also be a right edge card and dodgers rookie stars is a right edge card. Checklist 7 should also be a right edge card

[deweyinthehall]

Ah...well there goes my endorphine rush from earlier this morning.

Do we have images of the Dodgers RS and Law? I reviewed this thread and didn't see them.

[Kevvyg1026]

Found one Dodgers RS with a way right edge.

The Law surmise is based on finding both Niekro and Law with a line.

Checklist 7 should be there as well, based on the pattern used for every other series.

I suspect that a couple of rookie star cards are also there, but I havn't found conclusive evidence yet for those.

1965_453_RE_wavy.jpg

1965_461_top_line.jpg

1965_515_BL.jpg

1965_515_RE.jpg

1965_461.jpg

[Kevvyg1026]

Although this series is very difficult to attempt a complete reconstruction because of the paucity of miscuts, it appears to me that most of the 4x cards have known horizontal miscuts, so some connection might be possible for those 4x rows.

e.g., There is Horlen-Mota-Cards RS (Carlton)-dark green card and there is also a Geiger-Locke-Ellis-Piche_Rowe-gray card. Is it possible that Geiger is the dark green to the right of Carlton?

There is also a NYY team-Stephens-black and a Harrelson-Kostro-Fox-Cloninger-Angels RS (486). Perhaps Harrelson is next to Stephens?

And there is a Stange-Odell-Rakow-Mele-Dodgers RS as another part of a 4x run, so that might be in the third 4x row??

And finally, a black card-Boyer-Pavletich, an Owens-Gagliano, perhaps Priddy-Angels RS (517), and Indians RS-Aguirre

[Cliff Bowman]

I have scans of the Mets Rookie Stars being a right edge card, I will post them tonight.

[Kevvyg1026]

Yes, that is one of the RS cards I suspect is a right edge card, but the miscut I saw wasn't conclusive enough for me to call.

[Cliff Bowman]

Here is the 1965 Topps Mets Rookie Stars that has a wavy right edge that would result from the two slits being separated by a wavy hand cut which was prevalent in the 60's.

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Here is the 1965 Topps Mets Rookie Stars that has a wavy right edge that would result from the two slits being separated by a wavy hand cut which was prevalent in the 60's.

I had never realized this before - wavy/hand cuts can be used to determine edge cards even if there isn't enough real estate on the image to tell that way?

That's good to know.

[deweyinthehall]

[QUOTE=Kevvyg1026;2527284]Found one Dodgers RS with a way right edge.

The Law surmise is based on finding both Niekro and Law with a line.

Checklist 7 should be there as well, based on the pattern used for every other series.

I suspect that a couple of rookie star cards are also there, but I havn't found conclusive evidence yet for those.

The pattern on this 5th series full sheet is 5th series checklist in the right edge column, and 6th in the 2nd column.

So, wouldn't that make it in our 6th series slits the 6th series checklist as a right edge card and the 7th checklist in column 2?

[Kevvyg1026]

For the checklists in 1965, this is what I observed:

In series 1, col 2 had check 2, Col 11 had both checklist 1s.
In series 2, col 2 had check 2, col 11 had check 3
In series 3, col 2 had check 4, col 11 had check 3
In series 4, col 2 had check 4, col 11 had check 5
In series 5, col 2 had check 6, col 11 had check 5,
In series 7, col 2 had no check, col 11 had check 7

So, it appeared to me that when a checklist was repeated in the following series, it was placed in the same column as it had been in the prior series. In other words, the even-numbered checklists appeared in column 2, irrespective of which printing, while the odd-numbered checklists appeared in column 11. That is why I expect that in the Series 6 printing, col 2 will have check 6, since check 6 was in col 2 during the 5th series printing and is an even number while check 7 should be in col 11 since it is in col 11 for the 7th series printing and is an odd number.

The check 6 variation in series 6 should be the one with the "full m" shown on the back near card 481.

[Kevvyg1026]

Found this mc of Nottebart, #469. Looks to me like Joe Christopher is to the right.

That gives a horizontal run of Met/Sen -Don Nottebart-Joe Christopher-George Smith on a 3x row

1965_Nottebart_right.jpg

[Cliff Bowman]

Nice find, I had Nottebart as a possible 4x but this firmly makes him a 3x.

[deweyinthehall]

.

[Kevvyg1026]

In series 7, checklist 7, #508, is in Col 11 and is next to Angels RS (a light blue border card). If the 7th series slit that exists is looked at closely, that checklist appears to be the large print variation. A look at the back of that slit seems to confirm that because of the number ball positioning on the checklist. For those reasons, I believe the small print variation is the checklist 7 printed in the series 6 printing.

These two miscuts appear to support that suspicion. First, one miscut has a black border card to its left which cannot be the Angels RS card from series 7; the 2nd miscut shows the small print variation only marked up to card #522 (all in series 6 printing). And this checklist should be in Col 11.

508_1.jpg

[deweyinthehall]

Right you are - the 7th series print run is definitely the larger print checklist, so this does place the series 7 checklist in the 6th series run in column 11 and the 6th series checklist in column 2.

Given patterns this would also mean both checklists are 3xs, correct? Even still, there are several A's/Cards that could be next to this checklist.

[deweyinthehall]

Just found this wavy cut of Javier - based upon earlier discussions, does this indicate his presence on the right edge column??

[Kevvyg1026]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Just found this wavy cut of Javier - based upon earlier discussions, does this indicate his presence on the right edge column??

Nice find - that certainly is wavy and should be a RE card. The quantities on Javier are in that strange range, so I can't tell if he is a 3x or 4x.

I think that would mean that the RE cards are: Law (4x), Braves RS (Niekro 3x/4x), Dodgers RS (4x), checklist 7 (3x), Mets RS (3x), Javier (3x/4x), and a TBD.

There is a black border card to the left of check 7. If Javier is a RE card, then the card adjacent to the checklist 7 can't be Javier. It also can't be Gagliano (4x, in Col 2), Harrelson (4x, has Kostro at right), Cards RS (4x, has green card at right), Washburn (LAD/CWS at right), NYY TC (4x, Stephens at right), or Stallard (Buzhardt at right), which leaves Krausse (462) or Uecker (519) as the potential candidates.

Note: if the card to the right of Krausse is miscut enough to see the any part of the number ball on the Krausse card, then the brim of the hat in the cartoon on the Krausse card should be visible.

[Kevvyg1026]

How about this Berra with a wavy edge?? Bad trim job?

1965_470_berra_wavy trim.jpg

[deweyinthehall]

Can you remind me how we got Law on the RE? You mentioned a line but I couldn't see anything. Thanks.

[Kevvyg1026]

Two different miscuts. One mhas a line on the back, another seems to be cut as if an edge card.

1965_515_BL.jpg

1965_515_RE.jpg

[deweyinthehall]

You and Cliff mentioned that the wavies are a sign of edge cards - I will defer to you as you have been doing this longer than I.

We already had Geiger next to Locke, but I found this today and I think it's safe to say we were right.

Take heart! There are 131 other cards from this slit out there waiting to be found!!

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Two different miscuts. One mhas a line on the back, another seems to be cut as if an edge card.

What is the significance of the line?

[Kevvyg1026]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

What is the significance of the line?

The lines have been used for multitude of purposes over the years. Sometimes it was a cut line marker, sometimes it was to show the meld line between a group of four and a group of three rows etc. In this case, because niekro can be found with the line on top of the card and Law can be found with a line on the bottom of the card, I surmise that they are adjacent to each other vertically which would put law as a column 11 card

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Just found this wavy cut of Javier - based upon earlier discussions, does this indicate his presence on the right edge column??

I'm embarrassed that I forgot about Javier being a RE card, there is a wrong back with Javier on front and Mathews on the back and Mathews is a known header card.

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

The lines have been used for multitude of purposes over the years. Sometimes it was a cut line marker, sometimes it was to show the meld line between a group of four and a group of three rows etc. In this case, because niekro can be found with the line on top of the card and Law can be found with a line on the bottom of the card, I surmise that they are adjacent to each other vertically which would put law as a column 11 card

If the line on the Niekro is the one pictured in #77 above, that looks to me to be the top edge of whatever sort of holder it's in - it isn't parallel to the image on the card, and it seems to extend beyond the edges of the card.

[Kevvyg1026]

Earl Battey cards, #490, appear to have a recurring print defect near the trademark. It might help in identifying the card adjacent to it.

Similarly, Siebern # 455, has cartoon marks that extend closer to the edge than normal, which might also help identify the adjacent card.

battey.jpg

1965_455_edge_markings.jpg