Grimsley implicates Clemens in steroid/HGH case

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Posted By: jay behrens

Scott, it's all good. I jsut got done working 34 of the last 60 hours, so I've been on the grumpy side too.

A 'Stros v Twins series would be fun

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Anonymous

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Posted By: runscott

You are right - Canseco can't be discounted completely, nor can Grimsley, nor can the accused who say the two are lying. You kind of have to let the facts come out, like they did with Bonds and Palmeiro. If it turns out that Clemens and Petitte used 'roids, then I'll be very disappointed in both, since I only own two baseball shirts, and you know whose names are on the back....Clemens on the orange one, Petitte on the black one. Come on you two - make me an honest fan!!!!

Thanks Jay - I'm trying to be kinder, but if I have to change my handle to 'CrawlScott', I will.

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Posted By: Cy

On the topic of steroids we have heard quite a bit about Barry Bonds in this forum. Many have stated that if Bonds breaks Aaron's record, it still shouldn't count.

OK, let's hypothesis here. What is Clemens IS found guilty or just as guilty as Bonds is to be now? Should we take away all of his Cy Young awards? Should the World Series victories be declared null and void for his teams?

I would also like to see Bonds break Aaron's record and have MLB not recognize it, then let thousands of ticket holders sue MLB for giving them fraudulent entertainment. Could you see the repercussions if every season ticket holder sued for their money back plus damages?

Cy

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Posted By: Bryan

Last week I attended a lecture by an ethics professor. She said, "never trust the person you cheat with, they will throw you under the bus."

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Posted By: Bob

What I find very interesting is the responses of Clemens and Pettit to the question, "Have you ever taken or used steroids or HGH (Human Growth Hormone)?"
Pettit said, "I have never taken ANYthing, never taken or used either one."
Clemens said, "I have never taken steroids and have been tested for it before."
Hmmm, draw your own conclusions but Rog didn't mention a single word about GHG, his use, his non-use, only responding to the steroid part of the question. My understanding is that Grimsley specifically linked Clemens to HGH.
I also agree 100% with the previous posts that if a nice White boy from Texas cheated, he needs to receive the same treatment from the press, fans and HOF voters that a surly Black dude from SF received. Clemens has been getting a free pass for years. I believe it is also time for Bud Selig to immediately resign as commissioner for thousands of reasons but most recently the evidence that he is totally incompetent and unable to handle the steroid and GHG scandals in baseball.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I don't know who has or hasn't used steroids/HGH. The problem for the players is that for many years the players voted against testing and penalties for steroids use, and there is a well known lockeroom code of silence concerning steroids/HGH use, specifically about naming users. By definition, the code of silence exists to supress information from the public. So when the public doesn't take at face value players' protests of innocense, the players have laid the groundwork for this reaction. If someone says they aren't allowed to tell you the whole truth, it's natural for you to assume that what they tell you isn't the whole truth.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Hypothetically speaking - if all the great power hitters are using steriods and all the great power pitchers are using steriods, doesnt that make it a level playing field? In other words, if the pitchers are enhancing their performance just like the hitters, all is equal and all the records should count.

Of course, nothing that I said above should be interpreted as my condoning steriod usage.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

It's common knowledge that shrunken testicles and acne are of more benefit to hitters than pitchers.

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Posted By: Josh K.

lmao

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Posted By: Cobby33

Still haven't heard any credible evidence about Bonds' alleged steroid use...

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Bonds, Giambi and Sheffield testified before a Grand Jury that they used steroids. Though, Bonds and Sheffield said they were slipped mickeys.

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Posted By: Cobby33

I suppose in the court of public opinion, there is no regard as to admissible evidence. But, in any legal proceedings, if the only "evidence" is Bonds' GJ testimony that he unwittingly used 'roids, whoever attempts to prosecute him on that evidence alone will lose their job.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I don't know the answer, but I'd be curious to know when Bonds fired his trainer. Anyone who didn't use steroids and who discovered his trainer surreptitiously slipped him steroids instead of linseed oil, would fire the trainer and likely alert the police. I know of no one who would defend a trainer who surreptitiously gave him steroids or other illegal drugs, yet Bonds regularly defends his trainer. Bonds will sue the authors of a book because he doesn't want them to profit, but won't sue the guy who he says gave him steroids against his wishes and who thusly tainted his reputation and caused him to lose millions in endorsements, memorabilia profits, etc?

In a related case, if you say a guy did a criminal act against you (ala, giving you steroids against your wishes), the judge will ask to see the police report. And if you say you didn't file a complaint with the police, the judge will expect a darned good reason for you to not file a report before he or she will accept your version of events. A judge or jury would look with great skpeticism at Bonds' "I didn't know" explanation if Bonds didn't pursue some kind of action against the trainer, considering what Bonds is claiming the trainer did is a felony.

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Posted By: Cobby33

You bring up some good points- but ultimately, a jury would decide a case like this and whether a police report was filed or not would be irrelevant. Also, I'm not sure Anderson has ever testified (or otherwise admitted) that he gave Bonds anything illicit.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I promise you that if Bonds or his lawyer says to a judge that someone gave him steroids against his wishes, the judge will ask to see the police or other official report, assuming that one was filed.

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Posted By: Cobby33

The judge cannot and will not ask Bonds anything. It is the State's responsibility to prosecute him, if it wishes. The judge merely makes rulings on objections and motions and reads jury instructions and has no jurisdiction to ask any questions or order that any such information be provided, unless it is the subject of a motion by the State.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Many judges and juries would not beleive that Bonds acted in a way a person who unknowingly recieved steroids would act. As I explained, most people would act differently than Bonds acted. If it's already been established that the defendant used steroids, as it has, the judge or jury will need a good explantation why he did not act like a person who had unknownly received steriods. If there isn't a good explanation, most judges and juries will similar perceptions. And, without good defendant explanation, if this theoretical case is concerned with whether or not the defendant knowingly used steroids, it's not hard to predict the verdict.

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Posted By: Brett

If guys like Bonds and the other steroid users don't get banned from baseball, then whats the point of having these rules ? we might as well let guys like Joe Jackson and Pete Rose in the Hall if we don't punish them.

I've gotten to the point that i just can't say these ball players who smack out 40 HRs a year are good players because i'll bet half of them are on steroids. If Bonds was never caught, the rest of them won't get caught.

Steroids will eventually be used in breaking all of the most sacred baseball records ever. pretty sad...

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Posted By: Cobby33

Playing the proverbial devil's advocate (or not)...
Who really cares what they do to their own bodies?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Parents of kids who have college or pro athletic aspirations.

Personally, I compare steroids usage to graphic manipulations of the games. If I found out ESPN was computer graphically enhansing the home runs so the appeared to be going another 100 ft or, even words, manipulating scoring on the tv, I'd quit watching the sport. The reason I watch sports is not to have television execs fix the game.

To me, players on steroids makes the game fake, like a video game. If you watch an Olympic sprint and someone tells you the guy won because he had a better strain of steroids than the guy who came in second, you get the sense you had watched an espisode of Red Dwarf. I don't watch sports to see who has the best biochemist.

P.s., Red Dwarf (Pre-1997) is a great British science fiction comedy, with such episodes as when a space ship member put the lunch curry he was eating on the transmographier and accidentally created a monster half man half vindaloo that terrorized the crew.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Fair enough. But are we going to take records away from athletes who are philanderers; who abuse alcohol and drugs and other human beings? What ever happened to parents teaching their kids "right" vs. "wrong." Why do we now depend on the State and oversight organzations to do this for us?

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Posted By: jay behrens

There is a big difference between cheatting to win a game and perform better and betting on or throwing games for gamblers. Taking drugs is the lesser of a sin. Gamblers are looking to fix the outcome regardless of how players perform. If they get control, then baseball is no better than pro wrestling. If the whole league is on performance enhancers, it still doesn't predertermine the outcome and the integrity of the outcome is still intact. That's why the drug users will never be permamnently banned.

I also am in the camp that says let them do whatever they want to with their body. As someone else pointed out, it's the PARENTS!!! job to protect and inform their kids, not the governments.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: runscott

October 3, 2006
Doubt Cast on Report That Named Players

By JACK CURRY
Two days after it was reported that Roger Clemens was among the six major league players who investigators said had been identified as having used performance-enhancing substances, a federal prosecutor said the news media coverage contained “significant inaccuracies.”

The Los Angeles Times reported late Saturday that Clemens, a seven-time Cy Young Award winner; Andy Pettitte, Clemens’s teammate and workout partner with the Houston Astros; Miguel Tejada of the Baltimore Orioles; and three other current or former Orioles were reportedly named by Jason Grimsley, a former pitcher, as players who had used the drugs. The names were blacked out in a federal affidavit that was made public in June.

But Kevin V. Ryan, the United States attorney for the Northern District of California who is investigating steroids in baseball, issued a brief statement that cast some doubt on what was in The Times’s article.

“In view of the recent news reports purporting to identify certain athletes whose names had been redacted from the government’s search warrant filings in the Grimsley matter, and in the interests of justice, please be advised that these reports contain significant inaccuracies,” Ryan said.

The prosecutor’s office declined to elaborate. A message left for a Times spokesman was not immediately returned.

Grimsley’s agent, Joe Bick, said Grimsley, who was released by the Arizona Diamondbacks after he acknowledged using steroids and other drugs and who subsequently retired, is not responsible for the naming of any players in the affidavit.

“In terms of how those names got in the document, Jason disputes the fact that he put them there,” Bick said. “Jason’s attorney made that statement a while ago, and he still feels that way.”