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#101
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Grading hits home
Posted By: runscott
The problem is that if a card makes it into a slab, then history can be re-written,i.e - the alterations simply didn't occur. The act of grading becomes "the hand of God". Pretty heavy accomplishment for those youngsters - I wonder if they realize how powerful they really are? Next they'll be throwing Chee-tohs through steel walls. |
#102
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Gilbert Porter
This exchange has gone on with the usual pungent exchanges on the joys and sorrows of grading. I for one am grateful that there are grading companies, perfect though they may not be. As much as I understand grading standards, characteristics of genuine and "non-genuine" cards, and the history of different card issues, my eyes are simply not as good as others in picking out the problems. I am grateful for experts at the grading companies for their help and advice. I value the knowledge and discrimination of Mike Baker and others, who can see things in mere moments that I will not notice for days or weeks. The question was raised in this posting whether there is a good online source explaining grading criteria, with sample images. There is one at: http://www.seanet.com/~brucemo/card_articles/grading.htm I do not know the author, and I may not agree with every one of his/her statements. But this is an excellent primer on grading standards - well-written, well-reasoned and with useful images. That said, understanding the standards and being able to apply them in the real world are two separate challenges. As much as I have learned about cards, and as much as I still have my differences with grading companies, I have found their input invaluable in my collecting efforts. I continue to rely on SGC and GAI extensively for my collection - not to displace my personal evaluation of my purchases but to supplement my limited skills and failing eyesight. |
#103
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth
Scott. I am not sure I could be anymore relevant to you given the amount of contempt you have for me. |
#104
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Grading hits home
Posted By: PASJD
Suppose I own a card that has a corner flip and, as a result of storing the card in a screwdown, the flip becomes less apparent. In the eyes of the folks here setting moral standards, have I "restored" the card and do I have to disclose that if I sell the card (whether slabbed or unslabbed)? Am I committing a fraud if I send in the card to a grading company without disclosing that fact to them? If so, why? If not, why not? |
#105
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Grading hits home
Posted By: DD
Part of the issue is the graders should know enough to see, or at least look for your corner flip, or other alterations. As mentioned previously in this post, comic book graders (CGC) clearly indicate on the slab when a comic has been restored. |
#106
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Anonymous
You guys don't know me, but I sell a lot of cards on and off Ebay. |
#107
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Anonymous
oldthingsandstuff, |
#108
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Grading hits home
Posted By: PASJD
Pujols you want to lock up Greg because he pushed down some paper on the back of a card that graded a 2? I agree with Bill Cornell's analysis, this is not "restoration" in any meaningful sense. Compared to what really goes on out there it is laughably trivial. I would be interested, given your obvious high moral standards, in your response to my screwdown hypothetical, and let me add one more fact, that the card was not placed in the screwdown for the purpose of restoring it, just the way it was stored. |
#109
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth
so I am going to turn myself in at the local FBI office. I will try to convince everyone else at GAI, SGC and PSA who are apparently colluding with me to do the same. |
#110
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Grading hits home
Posted By: dennis
were talking about a grade of "good". that card is is in "good" condition.this is a hobby,you should enjoy it. take a look at what you buy and who you buy it from.if you believe the grades are set in stone from the slabbers then call the fbi.i would suggest you read all the disclaimers about card grading.the only thing they (graders) should be held accountable is for authentication. |
#111
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Judge Dred
Lots of hoopla on this one. Personally, I wouldn't bother going to the authorities on this because they have better things to do than monitor our hobby. We should be able to police things (a bit) on our own. This forum allows us to voice our opinions and it provides a method of "spreading the word." To me this is just a bad call by a grading service and it was a bit deceptive on the part of the submitter to conceal the hole. I know that PSA would not grade anything higher than a "1" with a pin hole. |
#112
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Grading hits home
Posted By: warshawlaw
But I am very disheartened by the cavalier attitude that some of the posters here take towards this issue. Everyone here is sophisticated enough and (hopefully) ethical enough to know that altering cards and selling them without disclosing that they have been altered is not right, regardless of whether a slabber blesses the handiwork between handfulls of cheese-its, and regardless of whether it is altered well enough to get a 7 or poorly enough to only draw a 2. The difference is one of degree, not substance. It is also illegal in California, where everything took place, to sell an altered card without disclosing it. California Business & Professions Code § 21671 says that you cannot sell an altered card without a specific written disclosure to the buyer and penalizes the seller who does so $5,000 per altered card, because: "The integrity of the sports trading card market must be protected by requiring seller disclosure to buyers and traders of sports trading cards that have been altered or refurbished..." |
#113
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Grading hits home
Posted By: runscott
<<Compared to what really goes on out there it is laughably trivial.>> |
#114
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Judge Dred
Thank you Warshawlaw. You reminded me of the word - ETHICS (or lack of). It would be something that could probably be applied to a deception or lack of full disclosure regarding an item description. This isn't a personal attack but an observation regarding selling and trading practices within our hobby. |
#115
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Anonymous
just so that i am not labled a future criminal... |
#116
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Grading hits home
Posted By: runscott
It's now okay to do anything you want to a card - as long as you can slip it by a grading company it's fine. Once it's in that slab, it is re-born in its new image. There is no longer any need for card collectors to think, or even examine their cards closely - after all, we have experts at the grading companies to do our thinking for us. "Wow, that's a 7 fer shur - most vivid colors I've ever seen in a Fro-Joy Ruth...Hey! Hold the mayo on that one!" |
#117
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth
Judge Dred |
#118
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Julie
Mastronet doesn't have to ask, it's an automatic--dating back to you know what, you know when. |
#119
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Grading hits home
Posted By: runscott
It's good to see such blatant honesty. |
#120
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Gary B.
I checked out this that you mentioned above: |
#121
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth
"Julie, you kill me" |
#122
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Grading hits home
Posted By: J Levine
Yesterday while trying to slide a p-f T-206 Jacklitsch into a pocket on a page, I snagged a corner and had a very small paper pull...I removed card, pushed paper down and slid it back in...you can't even tell!...when (well, really if) I ever sell, do I mention that it was altered? I altered a card. The guilt is eating away at me. Darn. |
#123
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Grading hits home
Posted By: runscott
You are my negative barometer for vintage card information. |
#124
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth
constantly remind me, by example, that my life could always be far worse. For that I thank you. You never disappoint me by showing me how angry and miserable you really are. |
#125
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Julie
........ |
#126
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Grading hits home
Posted By: 823dek
why break it up ? |
#127
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Grading hits home
Posted By: PASJD
But much ado about nothing. Why is it that all the people on this board have the same knee-jerk reaction and get all sanctimonious and self-righteous and on their moral high horse whenever Greg is involved just because he tamps down some paper surrounding a pinhole on a miserable off grade card, but seem to have no outrage at all about the shenanigans and fraud that are REALLY going on all over the hobby with extremely high priced cards (and others) in terms of taking out creases and stains, spooning and god knows what else to corners, most likely trimming (someone show me an oversize PSA 8 pre-war Hall of Famer or an undersize PSA 3 please??), and god only knows what else dealers are doing through their own skills or their relationships with experts in paper restoration. I am as much against "alteration" as the next person, so don't those of you who don't know me start dumping on me in a knee-jerk way, but some perspective please. Your outrage over the corruption with respect to graded cards (and probably ungraded too) is legitimate, but trying to suggest Greg is some moving force behind it or symbol of it, or that he is in cahoots with GAI based on a single card that they graded a "2," is absurd. |
#128
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Grading hits home
Posted By: runscott
"and you, my bar hound, November 4 2004, 10:28 PM |
#129
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Grading hits home
Posted By: runscott
Your posts are at least intelligent enough, and interesting enough to read. Quite honestly, despite what you say it's obvious that you would like to have the respect of others in the hobby. I'm not trying to dirty your name - merely debating you over an issue that we have a total disagreement on. |
#130
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Tim Mayer
I really hate these posts...I would have moved the paper over the pin hole also,,,its because of blind hated for Greg that this keeps going on....its not a big deal, and we keep rehashing the same old crud...oh yeah, please sign in.... |
#131
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
When a significant difference in value exists between grades, it is not uncommon for ethical individuals to resubmit cards to a grading service several times in an attempt to achieve a higher grade. This ethical practise will result in all valuable slabbed cards being representative of the worst condition for the indicated grade. |
#132
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Tim Mayer
it's been pointed out to me, if I don't like these types of threads I could post my own, and post about what I want to speak about,,,I agree,,,I wish I didnt post earlier.,,, |
#133
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Julie Vognar
...she's a nice lady (and her papa was a nice man). |
#134
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Tim Mayer
not sure what that means Julie, is it a crack on me ? |
#135
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Julie Vognar
for all I know, still is! Middle-aged ladies can stay middle-aged forever. Vicky. That was her name on the soap. |
#136
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth
Not sure I classify what you, and a couple others, have written about me as having been done in the spirit of a debate or a hypothetical argument since it has clearly has demonstrated a deep seeded hatred for me. |
#137
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Grading hits home
Posted By: runscott
I doubt anyone on this board has a "deep seeded hatred" for you. I have never even met you, and people who have met you say that you are very likeable (this includes at least one person who you thought "hated" you). Honestly, if I ever meet you in a social situation I would probably offer to buy you a drink, unless you started kicking me in the shins. |
#138
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth
Scott. Another game of semantics and talking out of both sides of your mouth. Just another post by you in which you cannot be "clean and focused." |
#139
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Julie
....... |
#140
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Grading hits home
Posted By: runscott
I guess now that you've nailed me I'll just disappear and you can sell altered cards to your heart's content with no fear of anyone responding. |
#141
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth
Sorry if that always seems to throw you for a loop and result in another insult. |
#142
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Grading hits home
Posted By: runscott
and good luck to you with whatever you do on Saturdays. |
#143
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Gary B.
Stop the madness! |
#144
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Anonymous
....what in the world ever became of sweet Jane? |
#145
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Grading hits home
Posted By: runscott
If you don't like the thread, why do you read it, and why do you post? If you stop posting in a boring thread, it dies a natural death. In fact, I'm willing to bet that if I promise not to post again in this thread (or even open it), when I check the board tomorrow there will be at least one additional post here...by someone who hates this thread. |
#146
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Gary B.
I don't dislike this thread at all, just trying to inject a little humor - I think a thread like this every once in a while keeps things lively around here, and though it occasionally gets a bit heated, it's still educational and helps me be aware of the current state of the vintage card industry. |
#147
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Julie
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