Questions regarding '52 through '80 Topps

[Eric72]

In my non-sports pursuits, I've been collecting Magic The Gathering cards for a while. In that space, there are techniques for authenticating cards. One such technique involves the orientation of print dots. For example, the black dots are oriented in a 45 degree angle.

In my sports card pursuits, I tend to focus on T206 and vintage baseball. My latest pickup was a 1971 Topps Nolan Ryan. I noticed Nolan's name was not a solid blue; it was a bunch of blue dots. This isn't surprising. I realize Topps used CMYK-style printing. It's supposed to include areas with lots of little dots. In this particular case, those blue dots are oriented in a roughly 45 degree angle. Magenta dots were along a different angle, so were the black, etc.

So, here are my questions:

1 - Would this pattern hold true for other '71 Topps baseball? In other words, for example, are the Cyan dots always at a 45 degree angle?

2 - Has Topps used the same orientation throughout the years?

Please let me know if I explained myself poorly. Any help/insight would be appreciated.

[Eric72]

Here’s an admittedly suboptimal photo of what I’m talking about.

[Zach Wheat]

Interesting. I am curious to hear from the printing experts. Good post

[steve B]

For 72, they should be the same for each card on a sheet. Key word "should"

The screen is done when photographing the original art. each color is done at a different angle to help the halftones create a good color picture.

So the big negative used to make the plates - the mask- should be the same for all the plates.
With variations, like the Cubs lettering differences, it depends whether they did the correction by altering the mask, or reshooting corrected art. Things like a change in the checklist would have been new art, and each series might be different from the other series.
It's also possible if they had for example wax packs made in one plant and cellos in another that the different plants may have screened the colors at different angles. (Yes, that opens up the possibility that a true master set is slightly more than two full sets.)

Topps combined halftone and non halftone, making it a bit more complicated at times.

By the late 80's, it was a free for all. 88 score was screened differently for different printings. Along with three different die cuts to separate the cards.
I haven't investigated earlier Topps or other sets, but it's sort of on the list.

[steve B]

Short version.

Because Topps was Topps, it might or might not be a good point for authenticating.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by steve B

Short version.

Because Topps was Topps, it might or might not be a good point for authenticating.

Truer words have never been spoken. Or written.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by steve B

For 72, they should be the same for each card on a sheet. Key word "should"

The screen is done when photographing the original art. each color is done at a different angle to help the halftones create a good color picture.

So the big negative used to make the plates - the mask- should be the same for all the plates.
With variations, like the Cubs lettering differences, it depends whether they did the correction by altering the mask, or reshooting corrected art. Things like a change in the checklist would have been new art, and each series might be different from the other series.
It's also possible if they had for example wax packs made in one plant and cellos in another that the different plants may have screened the colors at different angles. (Yes, that opens up the possibility that a true master set is slightly more than two full sets.)

Topps combined halftone and non halftone, making it a bit more complicated at times.

By the late 80's, it was a free for all. 88 score was screened differently for different printings. Along with three different die cuts to separate the cards.
I haven't investigated earlier Topps or other sets, but it's sort of on the list.

Steve,

If multiple printers were used, say for early 1950's Topps cards, would they use the same "mask"? At what point would Topps have handed off material to create separate plates for printing if multiple printers were used?

Thanks.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Steve,

If multiple printers were used, say for early 1950's Topps cards, would they use the same "mask"? At what point would Topps have handed off material to create separate plates for printing if multiple printers were used?

Thanks.

That's a really interesting question.

If they knew they were going to use multiple printers, they could have made multiple masks and shipped the printer a set. It would depend on the relationship with the printer and what equipment they had. A printer they used regularly that had the same equipment as their other printer could handle that easily. One that was "new" as a contractor would probably want the original art so they could do their own camera work.

The first real indication of a different printer is the 62 green tints. Whoever did those must have done their own camera work.

The different groups with varying cardboard in the 50's might also indicate a different printer. If they used masks sent from Topps, there probably won't be any differences. If they did their own from original art they should have identifiable differences, even if they're very small.

The other catch is small corrections, or changes to a sheet. I haven't really checked if many of the cropping/logo type variations are just different positions on the sheet, or different sheets.
These things could have been done when a new set of plates were needed because of wear, or multiple presses. By at least 1970 there were multiple sets of plates.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's a really interesting question.

If they knew they were going to use multiple printers, they could have made multiple masks and shipped the printer a set. It would depend on the relationship with the printer and what equipment they had. A printer they used regularly that had the same equipment as their other printer could handle that easily. One that was "new" as a contractor would probably want the original art so they could do their own camera work.

The first real indication of a different printer is the 62 green tints. Whoever did those must have done their own camera work.

The different groups with varying cardboard in the 50's might also indicate a different printer. If they used masks sent from Topps, there probably won't be any differences. If they did their own from original art they should have identifiable differences, even if they're very small.

The other catch is small corrections, or changes to a sheet. I haven't really checked if many of the cropping/logo type variations are just different positions on the sheet, or different sheets.
These things could have been done when a new set of plates were needed because of wear, or multiple presses. By at least 1970 there were multiple sets of plates.

Thanks Steve. I can DM you with info which is probably too long to put on the forum. There is a bunch of conflicting info as it pertains to '52 Topps and how it was printed, which points to the realization we really don't understand the complete picture yet. This is not surprising, as everyone was playing multiple roles and scrambling early on at the success of the first series of '52 Topps. BTW, one of the docents at the museum of printing, which I believe you referenced in another post several months ago had some familiarity with '52 Topps. He told me multiple printers were used to print the set.

It seems like more novices are starting to collect the set, including the variations. Gray back rarity is still not fully appreciated imho

[steve B]

I'd love seeing any info, figuring out how to tell if it's possible is oddly interesting to me. Probably a leftover from stamps where small differences like that can be really expensive.

[Zach Wheat]

With the '52 Topps mid-series cards, it appears there were at least 3 types of cardstock used and quite possibly a 4th type of cardstock. First would be the normal cream back cardstock, then in the 3rd series at least two types of gray backed cardstock (lighter gray, which is most common and a darker gray cardstock).

One issue I really have not been able to get enough info on is how the "white front" gray back cards occurred. It is likely either 1) careful storage out of UV light or 2) another type of white front card stock or possibly another cardstock which looked the same but didn't fade as much. I am leaning (55% / 45%) towards careful storage due to three collections of white front cards I located, ranging from a dozen cards to several hundred. All were original owners and stored away until recently. One collection had a dozen or so white front, dark gray back mid-series cards. The owner said all white front, gray backs were bought in 1952 in South Dakota. The other cards were a mix of 1st - 4th series cards with mainly white fronts. By the time I got to one collection, some cards from other collections were mixed together, but 90% of the cards were from the original owner. So I can't say for certain all white front cards were stored away together. Still not sure what to make of this or if this is a coincidence.

[steve B]

I'll have to get my 52s out and have a look. I know I don't have any of the difficult gray backs.