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#1
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: robert a
Anyone collect T213-1? |
#2
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Darren
Scarce issue. I'm afraid too scarce to have significant variations. I'm always looking for T213-1's to add to my collection. |
#3
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Joe D.
But I believe the T213-1s are actually tough-back T206s ('Coupon' back T206). |
#4
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: peter ullman
joe...what about the super thin stock? Doesn't really jibe w/t206's? |
#5
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Joe D.
I never held one in my hands..... and that is a very good point that I did not know about. |
#6
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Bill Todd
Joe, |
#7
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: peter ullman
i believe type 1's do NOT have blue type...although I just sold my type so I could be wrong...nonetheless a tough set to collect. |
#8
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Joe D.
The T213-1s did not have blue ink or a different typeface. |
#9
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: leon
No way do I believe a T213-1 is a set like the T206's. I have handled numerous T213-1's and they are at least completely different paper stock (very thin)....and from a different factory (I believe) than any other T206's. If we are going to say these are really T206's then we could say the same for E106, D303, T215-1 etc......These are Coupon cigarettes and not T206 imho.......just like Grandfater Jeff Burdick said.... |
#10
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Derek Granger
I just sold a T213-1 Scoops Carey on this forum about 2-3 weeks ago. Actually, the lettering on the front is in brown ...different from the T206, which is in black. In addition, the card stock is EXTREMELY thin, which would suggest a completely different issue! |
#11
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Joe D.
I didn't know the color of the typeface was different than the T206 type color. |
#12
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Matt
interesting discussion. I seem to recall some discussion with regard to whether certain companies had subtle differences in their ink selection for the T206 run; IIRC Sovoreign was named as one that used a different ink. Now, I don't think there was any suggestion of different paper stock, but, I suppose, in theory, that might not be that much different then different ink... |
#13
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: AndyH
I thought the T206 captions were in brown ink, not black. |
#14
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: robert a
Hi Derek, |
#15
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Joe D.
I am back to thinking they are T206s. |
#16
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: peter ullman
Leggo my eggo...Joe!!!(insert smiley face here) |
#17
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: AndyH
Could the difference in paper stock be attributed to the fact that the coupons were printed in a different factory in Louisiana? If they were the only 'series' of T206 printed at this factory, then would it be that hard to believe that this factory might have had a different paper stock? The quality control in a single factory was somewhat low back then, let alone across different factories in different states. So couldn't one factory have secured lighter weight paper for their production of the cards? |
#18
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: peter ullman
personally...I have always and still think Coupons are a separate distinct issue...not related to T206...dur to the stock, the factory. Are the team designations comparable to t206's...thereby placing them in the 1909-1911 era? |
#19
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: fkw
The only difference is the card stock and that alone would make me believe T213-1 is NOT in the T206 group. All 16 T206 brands have the same card stock. AB cards are cut narrower to fit the narrow package but the stock is the same as the other T206 brands and they also say 350 or 460 series. |
#20
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Joe D.
what if the thinner paper stock was specifically done to accommodate the packaging of Coupon Cigarettes? |
#21
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: barrysloate
The T213-1 have identical fronts to T206, and even the back design is consistent. Only the factory is different. I always thought they may have been a lost tribe of T206. But I see an argument both ways, since the type 2 and 3 are distinct and would never be confused with a T206. |
#22
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Richard Masson
Were Coupon Cigs a brand owned and manufactured by ATC? |
#23
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: robert a
Good question Richard. Not sure, but I would assume yes due to the exact same back bordering design. |
#24
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Darren
Polar Bear, Tolstoi, EPDG, etc don't list a series either. |
#25
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Brian Weisner
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#26
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: robert a
Good point Darren. |
#27
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: robert a
A couple of interesting points about t213-1 from Lew's book: |
#28
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: barrysloate
Coupon uses the same typeface and has the same border design as several of the T206's. I think we can make a very strong case that they should have been part of T206. |
#29
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: AndyH
But what about the type 2's and 3's? Why would a T206 brand continue with 2 more sets AFTER all the other brands stopped? |
#30
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: dennis
i always thought the 2 things that seperated the t213 coupons from inclusion in the t206 was the thin card stock and it was a regional issue. |
#31
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Brian Weisner
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#32
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: robert a
Andy, |
#33
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: AndyH
Brian, |
#34
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Brian Weisner
Hi Andy, |
#35
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Rhett Yeakley
I agree that aside from the thin paper stock the t213-1's are t206 cards. So, were they on thicker stock they would be considered t206, but due to the difference I don't have a major problem with them being seperated in the ACC. However the T215-1 Red Cross set is a different story. They aren't on thin stock and the same brand is included in the t207 "set". The only issue that set might have is the back saying "100 subjects" as opposed to the t206-familiar 150, 350, or 460 subjects. |
#36
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Richard Masson
It seems logical to me that Burdick made the original mistake by including so many brands under the T206 designation. The problem is not that Coupons aren't considered T206, but that Cycle, American Beauty and Broadleaf, etc. are included, solely on the basis of their front design and paper stock. If that is true, why aren't E90-1, E92, E101 and E106 considered part of the same set? |
#37
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Brian Weisner
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#38
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: robert a
Brian, |
#39
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Brian Weisner
OK Robert... I see your point... I was focussed too much on the printing to read the large print.... or see the forest for the trees. Be well Brian |
#40
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Richard Masson
Thank you, Robert, for making my point much more clearly. |
#41
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: leon
We need to remember that Burdick classified things according to the product it was distributed with AND by mfg. This is from the ACC, 1960, "Many sets came with two or more brands of cigarettes, as indicated. Most collectors are satisfied to obtain a set of the different pictures regardless of the brands. Sizes and shapes vary greatly." |
#42
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Glen Turner
I have a copy of the Oct-Nov-Dec 1971 issue of The Sport Hobbyist. |
#43
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: AndyH
Hustler was started by Larry Flynt...wait sorry, wrong Hustler. |
#44
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Rhett Yeakley
The Hustler back is included in the T59 Flags of all Nations set and early in the hobby it was reported that baseball players could be found with back, however an example has never been brought to light. |
#45
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Richard Masson
So Nagy considered Coupons and Red Cross to be T206s in 1971, yet these were categorized separately in the ACC by Burdick long before then? Was this a controversy at the time? |
#46
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: leon
As most remember I was able to get the complete checklists from one of the true hobby pioneers, Walt Corson. Walt is the person who sold Nagy much of his collection in the famed station wagon adventure that Bill Mastro once wrote about. Walt's best friend was James Lowe, famed postcard collector and author of several books. If we remember correctly Mr. Lowe's son Jeff auctioned off several N167's on ebay and is where I picked up the Ewing. I believe the Ewing most likely came from Corson before he sold everything to Nagy. Walt's checklist here included Hustler and Cobb as T206 backs he still needed. Walt was a friend of Jeff Burdick too.....So there is some small legitimate chance that this little 3 x 5 is where the "Hustler backed T206" urban myth came from.. I still go by Burdick first and foremost, even when he made a mistake, much as I still go by the English language when something doesn't fit a "rule". We don't change our alphabet and I don't change Burdick's ACC (but that's just me). This is circa late 1950's (maybe very early 1960's) as that is when the checklists are from too. It looks like he had just nabbed a Carolina Brights back. |
#47
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Darren
T213-1 is more closely related to T206 than is Ty Cobb reverse. |
#48
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Darren
If T213-1 is T206 where would it rank in back scarcity? I'd say probably around Broadleaf and Carolina Brights. |
#49
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: peter ullman
i agree with you darren |
#50
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T213 type 1 Collectors out there?
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
This thread got me to looking at T213s on eBay, and I was surprised at the prices. I reckon I just hadn't priced one in a while, and I live in the past... |
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