HOF expansion era ballot

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I never got the whole Joe Torre manager thing. I watched him for over a decade manage the Mets, Braves, and Cards. IMHO, he couldn't manage an NL team if his life depended on it. All of a sudden, he is managing the Yanks with a young core of Jeter, Posada, Mo, and Pettite, mixed with Martinez, Williams, Wells, Cone, Fielder, Davis, Brosious, Boggs, Key, etc, etc. He wins 4WS in the first 5yrs and then none in the next 7 while having even more all time players added to his roster.
I guess winning 4 WS in 29yrs managing is pretty good, but I never felt that he got more out of his players than was expected and often got less. Interestingly, LaRussa took over in St L for Torre in 1996 and promptly won the division. The Cards went from 62-81 to 88-74 in one year without significant roster changes that I can recall.

You speak the truth, and there are many who feel that anybody could have managed those Yankee teams. Torre does have a pretty damn good playing career going for him as well, and continues to contribute to the game from MLB offices.

On the flip side of this is the question of whether a manager who benefited from (and possibly accepted or even fostered) steroid usage should be put in while players under him are being held out. Of course, this is a different body of voters.

Interesting questions.

[btcarfagno]

I have always had a soft spot for Simmons and the Hall because I think he got shafted when he was initially on the ballot. For that guy, as one of the greatest catchers in history, to get less than 5% his first year on the ballot was an absolute travesty.

That said, I don't really think he deserves to be in the Hall. I just wish he had gotten his due on the ballots in the first place.

If I had a vote, LaRussa and Cox get in, Torre gets in, and Miller gets in. Parker is the closest for the players, but I don't think he quite makes it.

Tom C

[packs]

I don't see how you can say that about Joe Torre unless you also have a problem with Casey Stengel getting in. In 13 seasons as a non-Yankees manager the highest he ever finished was 5th.

Torre finished first with the Braves in 1982 and won the Western division twice in a row with the Dodgers.

My opinion is Torre is the only HOFer out of the bunch.

[sylbry]

Nobody should get in. None are worthy. It's obnoxious how we all know and dislike how the Hall is being watered down with lesser talent only to keep giving those lesser talents more opportunities to get in. Ron Santo being the perfect example. How many times was his candidacy vetted? Has to be over twenty times? Seems to be we keep giving players opportunities until those voting forget said player was good enough to be elected in the first place.


And Miller being on the ballot is a joke. He was a labor leader and never set foot on the field. It is bad enough that umps, owners, and commissioners are in.

Putting down the mic and humbly getting off my soap box. I thank you for wasting a minute to read my opinion.

[packs]

Marvin Miller's candidacy always baffled me. How can he have such a strong case for HOF consideration while Curt Flood is ignored?

Marvin Miller has no legacy without Curt Flood. If Miller is a HOFer for his contributions to baseball then so is Curt Flood.

[bender07]

Originally Posted by packs

Marvin Miller's candidacy always baffled me. How can he have such a strong case for HOF consideration while Curt Flood is ignored?

Marvin Miller has no legacy without Curt Flood. If Miller is a HOFer for his contributions to baseball then so is Curt Flood.

Miller ate Kuhn's lunch and Bowie got in. That's like putting the Washington Generals in before the Globetrotters.

[z28jd]

I think the only ones getting in are the three managers, Torre, LaRussa and Cox.

Miller never played, or wore a uniform or worked for a team in his life. Not sure why he would be in the HOF. What he did may be considered important, but I don't think George Mitchell is going in, yet he will be forever famous for the Mitchell Report. I wouldn't put in Scott Boras because he negotiated some of the biggest contracts ever, they are all outside characters. Thomas Edison invented the light bulb, you don't put him in because night baseball made the sport more popular.

Steinbrenner should never get in, shouldn't even be considered due to his ban from the sport. The main reason he shouldn't get in is the same one that no owner during the 90's should get in. They let steroids get out of hand and profited off it, then got off free and clear from any blame, while the players took all of it. Nothing like encouraging them to do it by allowing it and paying them more, then pretending like all 30 teams had no idea. If players from the era don't get in, then neither should the owners who allowed it until they were pressured from an outside source. Steinbrenner paid a large amount of those guilty and presumed guilty players, Giambi, Aroid, Pettitte, Clemens, etc and who knows who else

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Nobody should get in. None are worthy. It's obnoxious how we all know and dislike how the Hall is being watered down with lesser talent only to keep giving those lesser talents more opportunities to get in. Ron Santo being the perfect example. How many times was his candidacy vetted? Has to be over twenty times? Seems to be we keep giving players opportunities until those voting forget said player was good enough to be elected in the first place.


And Miller being on the ballot is a joke. He was a labor leader and never set foot on the field. It is bad enough that umps, owners, and commissioners are in.

Putting down the mic and humbly getting off my soap box. I thank you for wasting a minute to read my opinion.

Speaking as one who believed Santo belonged in the Hall long ago, I vehimently disagree. As you can see with the induction of players like Santo and Blyleven, the Hall recognizes that how players were perceived when they were originally voted on can change over the years. Advanced metrics now show some players, such as Blyleven and Santo, to have been far more valuable than was previously thought. This is the reason for votes such as these.

As for Miller, he is one of the most important figures in the history of the sport. There should be little doubt about that. Yes, Curt Flood took his case to the Supreme Court, but Miller was there with him. Miller effectively ended the reserve clause, and he made the baseball players union into perhaps the strongest in the country. His actions helped lead the game to where it is today financially. Heck. If Bowie Kuhn is in the Hall of Fame but Marvin Miller isn't...???? Seems a bit ass-backwards to me.

Tom C

[packs]

Even with Miller at the head of the Union, it took Flood acting on his own behalf to change baseball forever. It was Flood who declared himself a human baseball player and not property of the Cardinals and opened the gates for players to challenge the reserve clause. Not Miller. His contribution to baseball should supercede Miller's but he is never considered.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by packs

Even with Miller at the head of the Union, it took Flood acting on his own behalf to change baseball forever. It was Flood who declared himself a human baseball player and not property of the Cardinals and opened the gates for players to challenge the reserve clause. Not Miller. His contribution to baseball should supercede Miller's but he is never considered.

Miller and the MLBPA helped bring the appeals process through, helped to strategize how it was handled, and ultimately helped shape public opinion of the matter as the owners fumbled along. Flood is extraordinarily important without question. He stuck his own neck onto the chopping block. The case doesn't get where it went if not for Miller. It was the determination that Miller showed that gave Flood the confidence to do what he did. Miller at the time was pretty much looking for someone to fit the bill who would do what Flood was willing to do. Flood did what he did BECAUSE he had Miller and the MLBPA guiding him every step of the way.

Miller remained a thorn in the owners' side for years thereafter as well. The game of baseball is what it is today as a result of his actions. No less than Bill James has said that if there was ever a Mount Rushmore for the sport of baseball, that Miller would be one of those recognized. He was that important.

Tom C

[mr2686]

I find it interesting that Concepcion is on the list. If he was on a lot of other teams of that era he wouldn't get any love at all, but because he was on the powerhouse Reds he's considered. Don't get me wrong, I think he was an important part of those teams, much like Reese and Rizzuto, but I'd have to be convinced that he belonged in the hall. Speaking of which, Reese and Rizzuto are often talked about in the same breath, so how is it that Concepcion is on the ballot and Bert Campaneris is not? Their stats are not that different and Campaneris was on 3 WS winners, not 2. Similar types of players if you ask me...which nobody did.

[djson1]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Nobody should get in. None are worthy. It's obnoxious how we all know and dislike how the Hall is being watered down with lesser talent only to keep giving those lesser talents more opportunities to get in. Ron Santo being the perfect example. How many times was his candidacy vetted? Has to be over twenty times? Seems to be we keep giving players opportunities until those voting forget said player was good enough to be elected in the first place.


And Miller being on the ballot is a joke. He was a labor leader and never set foot on the field. It is bad enough that umps, owners, and commissioners are in.

Putting down the mic and humbly getting off my soap box. I thank you for wasting a minute to read my opinion.

I almost completely agree with you here, except IMO, I do think Garvey is HOF-worthy. Garvey was one of the most reliable players in the '70s and early '80s. To me, he's just like Mattingly: I don't know why these reliable and productive players have been snubbed. I agree with you on Santo though. Was never really impressed with him.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I have always had a soft spot for Simmons and the Hall because I think he got shafted when he was initially on the ballot. For that guy, as one of the greatest catchers in history, to get less than 5% his first year on the ballot was an absolute travesty.

That said, I don't really think he deserves to be in the Hall. I just wish he had gotten his due on the ballots in the first place.

If I had a vote, LaRussa and Cox get in, Torre gets in, and Miller gets in. Parker is the closest for the players, but I don't think he quite makes it.

Tom C

I feel the same way about Lou Whitaker: is he a HOFer? No, probably not. But to not even make it off the first ballot is insulting.

Also agree: no player on this ballot is a HOFer. I think the 3 managers will make it, but it's hard to see them all get in this year.

Now, if Simmons DOES get in this year, that loud thumping sound you'll hear is me kicking myself in the head. I had a bat of his for probably 10 years, and I just sold it.

Ken

[Runscott]

LaRussa and Cox, or one of the two.

[JimStinson]

I never really looked at the Joe Torre argument as was presented here , I always figured he was a "lock" , but you guys made some pretty good points.

Kind of ironic , but I was at a ball game once in Chicago and asked a very, very intelligent baseball friend I was at the game with who in his opinion was the best manager he ever saw and he never even hesitated and said "Tony LaRussa" which kind of shocked me as I never considered him Good let alone GREAT and certainly not HOF material but he explained his reasoning and at the time it made sense.

We were drinking beer at the time so I guess he could have said "Stump Merrill" and that probably would have made sense too ....

The BEST manager by far that I ever saw manage day in and day out was Billy Martin. And not just with the Yankees either , the guy was complicated yes...but every where he went he turned losers into winners
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