OT: Who should be in the Hall that isn't

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bill, I have a challenge for you. I bet you could come up with some stats to show that Willie Stargell (classic victim of 60s suppressed stats, no?) was better than Joe DiMaggio.

Willie was better than Joe D...in 1979. But then again, Joe D was hawking Mr. Coffee coffee makers. Notice I didn't say he was 65? I bet Joe D still could have hit .275 at that age (and with the right corrective lenses).

[clydepepper]

Luis Tiant & Minnie Minoso
- let's honor these guys while they are still alive.

Don't treat them like Santo.

[deucetwins]

Shoeless Joe (who always gets the image of Ray Liotta in their mind?)
Charlie Hustle (the #'s speak for themselves)
Frank Jobe (changed the game with his surgery)

My throwaway would be Wally Backman. His rants as a minor league manager on YouTube are hilarious.

[sayhey24]

Bill -- we now agree on two things, the second being that Braun deserves a second chance.
I do admire your loyalty to one of your favorite players and the passion you bring to your research -- that says a lot about a person (I'm also jealous of all the time you have to do that research). I don't have that kind of time, so I'll just confidently stand by my statements -- by the way, you'll notice I didn't say PEDs, but substances that enhanced performance.

And I will disagree on one more point -- I still think that Joe D. may have been better than Stargell in the 1970s!

Greg

[sayhey24]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Luis Tiant & Minnie Minoso
- let's honor these guys while they are still alive.

Don't treat them like Santo.

+1

Greg

[Runscott]

"Who should be in the hall that isn't?"

Answer: about half the players that are in the 'hall that is'.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Luis Tiant & Minnie Minoso
- let's honor these guys while they are still alive.

Don't treat them like Santo.

Raymond,

Oh, is that a sore spot with me...still. There's nothing I hate more than seeing somebody elected to the Hall of Fame-- be it the Baseball Hall, the Pro Football Hall, or hell, even the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame--after they have passed away. If they are good enough to get voted in posthumously, then they are good enough to get voted in while they are alive.

Now, I'm not a big disco fan, but the fact that the R&R HoF elected Donna Summer last year, only a few months after she'd died, well, that just ticked me off on kinds of levels. Her husband and three beautiful daughters got up there to accept in her stead. And while it was definitely a celebration of Donna and her music, there was an underlying sadness just below the surface when her husband was speaking. I thought it showed a complete lack of class by the committee that voted her in. And the Santo election is another one. He died in December of 2010, and was elected in 2012. His final game was in 1974 when I was three. I was 39 years old when they finally elected him. Why couldn't they make that happen in the nearly four decades he lived after retiring? I'm feeling the same way about Jerry Kramer, the Packer great. I know I brought him up before, and listed his accolades. But how does somebody make it on the the NFL's All Decade Team for the 1960s and the NFL's 50th Anniversary team, and yet not get into the Hall of Fame?

Ridiculous.

Originally Posted by deucetwins

Shoeless Joe (who always gets the image of Ray Liotta in their mind?)
Charlie Hustle (the #'s speak for themselves)
Frank Jobe (changed the game with his surgery)

My throwaway would be Wally Backman. His rants as a minor league manager on YouTube are hilarious.

Jeff, though he's been in many great films, I will always picture Ray Liotta as Henry Hill. For me, there's Goodfellas, then all the other flicks he did.

He called in one night when I was working (I didn't speak with him, one of my colleagues did), and about ten minutes into a conversation about mutual funds vs ETFs (if my memory is correct), I walked behind the broker on the phone with him, and said "go home and get your shine box" loud enough so Mr. Liotta could hear. He broke out with that classic Ray Liotta laugh, the "Tommy, you're a really funny guy" laugh. I could hear it even though the guy talking to him was on a headset. I'd always hoped he'd call back, but I never got a chance to talk to him.

Originally Posted by sayhey24

Bill -- we now agree on two things, the second being that Braun deserves a second chance.
I do admire your loyalty to one of your favorite players and the passion you bring to your research -- that says a lot about a person (I'm also jealous of all the time you have to do that research). I don't have that kind of time, so I'll just confidently stand by my statements -- by the way, you'll notice I didn't say PEDs, but substances that enhanced performance.

And I will disagree on one more point -- I still think that Joe D. may have been better than Stargell in the 1970s!

Greg

Greg, believe me when I say I wish I didn't have this much free time. I'd much rather be at work right now. I'd be starting my night in about 5 minutes, and that would go until 7 am. Instead, I'm watching tv and movies again. I'm sure being able to watch tv all day in bed sounds great to people working 40 hours a week. When I was working 60 hours a week during tax season, I know that would have sounded like paradise. But after a while, no matter how entertaining those movies are, it all starts to feel like a prison. I spend about 95% of my days in my bedroom. It feels like a prison cell after a while.

Also, I want you to know I respect your position. I do. In fact, unless the person on the other end of a spirited debate is acting like a horse's you-know-what, I will pretty much always respect the other guy if they take a stand. I respect people that formulate opinions on their own, that take a stand for what they believe in, you know? There are too many hangers on. They want to cling to something because they're spineless.

Braun really screwed up, and I was mad at him for a good while. And ultimately, I don't care why he did it. I don't care if his intentions were good or not. The bottom line is that he broke the rules, and I've had to try and reconcile my affinity for Braun with the disappointment and anger I've felt because of what he did. I love the game of baseball so much, and I abhor any kind of cheating in the game I love. I know cheating has been going on in one form or another as long as the game has been played (I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, you know). But that doesn't mean I have to like it.

PS-you might be right about DiMaggio.

[the 'stache]

Oh, and Jeff, I agree with you on all three of the gentlemen you named.

I understand there have to be rules in baseball, and if you break a rule, you have to pay a penalty of some sort, be it sitting out the last 65 games of a season, or being permanently banned by the League Commissioner.

But like the game of baseball itself that starts with hope renewed each spring, I believe at some point all men should be given a second chance. Though Shoeless Joe Jackson is no longer with us, I think that he has paid penance enough. So, too, has Pete Rose.

I look at the players that we are, for one reason or another, choosing to exclude from Cooperstown. The all-time leading home run hitter. The all-time hits leader. The men with the three best individual home run seasons in baseball history, too. The man with more Cy Young Awards than any other pitcher. One day I might get married and have a kid. I'll be older than dog spit, but if I have a boy, I'll take him to visit Cooperstown. And I do not now know how I would answer him if asked "daddy, who hit the most home runs, and who had the most hits, and why are they nameless silhouettes on this wall? I can't even answer that question now. What will happen when I'm old and decrepit?

Joe Jackson needs to be in the Hall of Fame. I mean, if the Hall exists to honor the greats of the game, I'd be hard pressed to name ten men who had greater natural hitting ability than Jackson.

Pete Rose bet on baseball. And he bet on his own team. But he didn't bet they would lose, and then attempt to sabotage his team's chances. He bet on his team to win.

Again, he's served his time. Put him in Cooperstown. Put a post it note next to his plaque stating he bet on the game if you must, baseball. But put him in.

And Jobe? Yes. He clearly belongs in. Another man that should have been inducted while he was alive. Now it's too late.

What a shame.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Willie was better than Joe D...in 1979. But then again, Joe D was hawking Mr. Coffee coffee makers. Notice I didn't say he was 65? I bet Joe D still could have hit .275 at that age (and with the right corrective lenses).

LOL. By the way I think your post about Braun was too condensed -- could you please spell out your arguments in a little more detail? I thought your post about Mattingly was also somewhat truncated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Willie was better than Joe D...in 1979. But then again, Joe D was hawking Mr. Coffee coffee makers. Notice I didn't say he was 65? I bet Joe D still could have hit .275 at that age (and with the right corrective lenses).

That's like an anecdote attributed to Cobb. Someone in the 1950's allegedly asked him what he thought he would hit if he were playing today. He said around .270. The questioner expressed surprise, and asked him to explain. He said, well I am 70 years old.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That's like an anecdote attributed to Cobb. Someone in the 1950's allegedly asked him what he thought he would hit if he were playing today. He said around .270. The questioner expressed surprise, and asked him to explain. He said, well I am 70 years old.

Yup, though Mr. Cobb's (er Tommy Lee Jones') language was a little more colorful. Then he grabbed Lolita Davidovich. That was the best part of the gig for ol' Texas Tommy.

Oooooo! And Tommy Lee Jones really was born in Texas. Texas Tommy works.