T201 Mecca - Master Set/New Discovery/New Theory

Zach Wheat · #1 11-17-2014, 08:15 AM

Barry,

Thanks you are too kind.

Sorry for responding to the thread so late, but have been traveling quite a bit. Cliff, here is a Kling Cole Factory 30 back. Factory 30 backs account for about 17% of the cards printed. I think Cliff brings out several interesting points. I think the set is not well understood and am glad to see some discussion.

In the original article, I had to cut out almost 75% of the material as the article was just too long. However, I have always thought that there were other short prints that weren't recognized and the set was printed over a number of years with a regional bias towards NY teams. Factory 649 was in Rochester (home of the Eastern Association Broncho's) and 4 of the 6 EA teams were represented in the T201. The NY area accounted for a significant & disproportionate percentage of the cigarette market in the 1910's. In addition, I believe Factory 30 was relocating - but am unsure - into what became the House of Mecca in or near Brooklyn. I got this information from The American Tobacco Companies own "biography" detailing their cigarettes, brands & production.

This would help explain some of the anomalies

I own about 300 T201's and reviewed many thousand more. I knew most of the stars were printed 4,5 & 6 times relative to certain other cards but could never firmly establish how many cards of each were printed relative to the other cards. T201's were notoriously miscut. I compared the miscut edges of cards and you can tell the relative location on a sheet of cards from one card over the other, etc.

I found a number of odd things about the miscut cards and what it implied about production quantity of each card. Need to run now, but will try to chime in later.

Cliff you are on the right track.

Z Wheat

drmondobueno · #2 11-17-2014, 10:04 AM

Keep looking, Cliff!

Marslife · #3 11-18-2014, 07:45 PM

Thanks Mr. Wheat! GR8 stuff as usual, thanks for chiming in. Also thanks for busting my theory on the Kling/Cole F30 short print

Just kidding - glad to know the F30's exist and my quest for the Master Set continues! The thrill is in the hunt!

I suspect that we can still consider the Lord/Dougherty a short print even though one factory 30 turned up. From all the emails and PM's it seems that so far I've found the only one! Keep the emails coming if you find another.

I am still interested to see if anyone else has run across a F30 Kling/Cole. From everyones responses, the Kling/Cole does seem to be harder to find than others. Perhaps it is due to only having one card on a sheet with larger amounts of stars at the time with multiple copies on a printing sheet?

I am trying to archive some photos of miscuts I run across and someday hope to start to peice together side by side sheet positions... someday!

thanks to all the T201 FANS that responded with words of encouragement!

the hunt continues!

Cliff

Fred · #4 11-18-2014, 11:20 PM

After completing that set I never understood why Lord/Daugherty card was considered hard to obtain. There were quite a few errors in the "Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards".

A big error that I think/hope has finally been corrected in the "Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards" is the existence of an N162 Dunlop on Detroit. My guess is some hobby veteran indicated he mistakenly had the card and based on that collectors status the publisher of the catalog listed it as a part of the set. What was really odd is that the "Detroit" version (non-existant) was listed as the cheaper of the two cards (Detroit or Pittsburgh team designation).

Perhaps the Lord/Daugherty was difficult for some advanced collector(s) to find (before the days of the internet) so when the original card catalogs were published the card was deemed scarce or a short print based on a false assumption. That is what I truly believe. I bet any adavanced collector that has gone after the T201 set will tell you Lord/Daugherty is not difficult to find.

mattsey9 · #5 11-19-2014, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred

Perhaps the Lord/Daugherty was difficult for some advanced collector(s) to find (before the days of the internet) so when the original card catalogs were published the card was deemed scarce or a short print based on a false assumption. That is what I truly believe. I bet any adavanced collector that has gone after the T201 set will tell you Lord/Daugherty is not difficult to find.

I agree. There have been a good number available on Ebay since I started collecting the set last year.

DerekD · #6 11-19-2014, 04:44 PM

I went through my set and had 15 F30s. Both of my Lord and Kling were F649.

Thanks for sharing.

chlankf · #7 03-25-2018, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marslife

Thanks Mr. Wheat! GR8 stuff as usual, thanks for chiming in. Also thanks for busting my theory on the Kling/Cole F30 short print

Just kidding - glad to know the F30's exist and my quest for the Master Set continues! The thrill is in the hunt!

I suspect that we can still consider the Lord/Dougherty a short print even though one factory 30 turned up. From all the emails and PM's it seems that so far I've found the only one! Keep the emails coming if you find another.

I am still interested to see if anyone else has run across a F30 Kling/Cole. From everyones responses, the Kling/Cole does seem to be harder to find than others. Perhaps it is due to only having one card on a sheet with larger amounts of stars at the time with multiple copies on a printing sheet?

I am trying to archive some photos of miscuts I run across and someday hope to start to peice together side by side sheet positions... someday!

thanks to all the T201 FANS that responded with words of encouragement!

the hunt continues!

Cliff

Since starting this set a few weeks ago I have been doing a lot of reading. Really enjoyed reading the information on this post.
Hoping to hear any updates on factory 30 vrs 649 numbers since the original post. Additionally, Cliff have you found your Kling/Cole F30 yet?

Happy hunting.
Craig

Marslife · #8 03-28-2018, 03:44 PM

Hey Craig!

welcome to the set of "perfect Satisfaction!"

still hammering away at a Master set. I also collect the non sports mecca set (EX:t42 birds) and with all the Mecca sets it seems the Factory 30's are "less prevalent" than the F 649's.

We have learned that a T201 Master set IS POSSIBLE in that Zach Wheat has a F30 Kling/Cole (which I need) and I have a F30 Lord/Dougherty (which he needs)! So I am sitting at 99/100 for a Master Set :-(

Neither one of us is relenting to the other so the stalemate continues!

I will be the guy at the National in Cleveland irritating all the dealers by turning all the T201's upside down!

The quest continues....

I have upgraded several cards, (good news for me bad news for him) in that Keith broke up his beautiful SGC registry set, i was proud to win a couple at auction.

All of my cards are SGC so one day when I get some time to get them separated on the registry.

Welcome to the Double Folder club! its a great set!

TTYL!

Cliff

chlankf · #9 03-29-2018, 09:02 PM

Cliff,

Having such a good time with these.

I hadn't found any vintage Des Moines or Iowa baseball items lately. A member posted in BST a Clarke/Byrne Since Fred Clarke is from Winterset, Iowa and just a few miles from me I could justify picking it up. Had to go show my dad as soon as it arrived. My father pulled out a Summers/Jennings I gave him for Christmas 25 or so years ago.

Here 2-3 weeks later, I've jumped in feet first into the world of T201s. I've picked up another seven cards looking for F30 but haven't discriminated against F649. No plans on working towards a master set but can really appreciate your efforts.

So far I've picked up:
Clarke/Byrne F649
Stovall/Turner F649
Baker/Downie F649
Brown/Hofma F649
Mathewson/Bridwell F649
Summers/Jennings F30
Laff/Barry F30
Killian/Fitzpatrick F30
Crawford/Cobb F30

Not going for high grade, just no trimming, missing pieces, writing, tears, etc.

Craig

RCMcKenzie · #10 03-16-2020, 04:01 PM

Picked up a T201 Mecca 30 Lord/Dougherty...to go with my Mecca 649 with Burdick stamps...

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