T206 Detective Work

[atx840]

Hey Scott, here are the 17 shared between the two backs.

No note, the y/b scraps have the Ames where the BL460s have Dougherty (which I believe was swapped out at some point during the 460 print run)

Baker, Frank
Bender, Chief (No Trees)
Doolan, Mickey (Batting)
Downey, Tom (Batting)
Doyle, Larry (With Bat)
Elberfeld, Kid (Fielding)
Griffith, Clark (Batting)
Johnson, Walter (Glove At Chest)
Konetchy, Ed (Glove Near Ground)
Magee, Sherry (With Bat)
Murphy, Danny (Batting)
Reulbach, Ed (No Glove Showing)
Rucker, Nap (Throwing)
Seymour, Cy (Throwing)
Stahl, Jake (Glove Shows)*
Street, Gabby (Catching)
Sweeney, Jeff

These 17 are not found in the AB no frame.

Brown, Mordecai (Chicago On Shirt)
Davis, Harry (Davis On Front)
Donlin, Mike (With Bat)
Dougherty, Patsy (Arm In Air)
Joss, Addie (Hands At Chest)
Kleinow, Red (New York - Catching)
McIntyre, Harry (Brooklyn & Chicago)
O'Leary, Charley (Hands On Knees)
Snodgrass, Fred (Catching)
Willis, Vic (Throwing)
Young, Cy (With Glove)
Chance, Frank (Portrait - Yellow)
Chase, Hal (Portrait - Blue)
Chase, Hal (Black Cap)
Cobb, Ty (Portrait - Red)
Evers, Johnny (Chicago On Shirt-Yellow Sky)
Mathewson, Christy (Dark Cap)

[sreader3]

Thanks Chris. More complicated than I thought! I assumed AB350 NF and the scraps would have 34 of 37 in common. Scot

[sreader3]

Chris,

Is the SC Y/B 460 scrap Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) or (Boston)?

Thanks.

Scot

[atx840]

Boston, only known example and its a pretty low quality scan. I do not have a scan of the Chase dark cap.

Here is a higher quality version of the below layout.

[mrvster]

the sweet cap 460 yellow browns are exactly the same # and same subjects as broadleaf 460

OH BOY!

ames swaped for Dougherty.........they must have been printed concurrently......

DUDE!

this is huge! they are almost the same total population known/ same subjects...

TWINS TO BROADLEAF 460

[sreader3]

Chris -- Your theory that Dougherty (Arm in Air) was swapped out for Ames (Hands Above) is interesting. That could explain why it took so long to confirm Ames with SC 460/42 No Overstrike and why he has not been confirmed with Red Hindu when there is otherwise perfect (as far as we know) correspondence between SC 460/42 No Overstrike and Red Hindu. I suppose the theory would be that the swap occurred after Red Hindu production ended but while SC 460/42 No Overstrike production was still ongoing. Hence no Ames Red Hindu and a shortprinted Ames SC 460/42 No Overstrike. You seem to be way ahead of me on this so perhaps I am just telling you what you already know.

Johnny -- Your BL460 comments are also very interesting. Will have to absorb them.

Scot

[t206hound]

I'm pretty sure that Chris has done this analysis, but I took a stab at it as well. Note that several cards in the 460 series that are expected, but not confirmed. There could be some that are not expected, that do exist (the Ames SC460-42 is one that appeared recently).

When looking at the 460 Series of 109 subjects (American Beauty, Broad Leaf, Cycle, Piedmont 25/42, Sovereign, Sweet Cap 25/30/42/42OP, Yellow Brown) you can break them down into smaller groups:

Superprints (6), which appear in all the 460 series (including YB) except AB460:

• Chance, Frank (Portrait - Yellow)
• Chase, Hal (Portrait - Blue)
• Chase, Hal (Black Cap)
• Cobb, Ty (Portrait - Red)
• Evers, Johnny (Chicago On Shirt-Yellow Sky)
• Mathewson, Christy (Dark Cap)

Remaining non-AB460 (27), don't appear in AB460, S460 or SC460-30. I'm not grouping in Dougherty (no Yellow Brown):

• Baker, Frank
• Bender, Chief (No Trees)
• Brown, Mordecai (Chicago On Shirt)
• Davis, Harry (Davis On Front)
• Donlin, Mike (With Bat)
• Doolan, Mickey (Batting)
• Downey, Tom (Batting)
• Doyle, Larry (With Bat)
• Elberfeld, Kid (Fielding)
• Griffith, Clark (Batting)
• Johnson, Walter (Glove At Chest)
• Joss, Addie (Hands At Chest)
• Kleinow, Red (Boston - Catching)
• Konetchy, Ed (Glove Near Ground)
• Magee, Sherry (With Bat)
• McIntyre, Harry (Brooklyn & Chicago)
• Murphy, Danny (Batting)
• O'Leary, Charley (Hands On Knees)
• Reulbach, Ed (No Glove Showing)
• Rucker, Nap (Throwing)
• Seymour, Cy (Throwing)
• Snodgrass, Fred (Catching)
• Stahl, Jake (Glove Shows)
• Street, Gabby (Catching)
• Sweeney, Jeff
• Willis, Vic (Throwing)
• Young, Cy (With Glove)

Then we get to the groups that are in AB460...

Exclusive Twelve (12), which do appear in AB460, but not in BL460, P460-25, SC460-25 or YB:

• Crandall, Doc (Portrait With Cap)
• DeVore, Josh
• Duffy, Hugh
• Ford, Russ
• Gandil, Chick
• Geyer, Rube
• Hummel, John
• McGraw, John (Glove At Hip)
• Pfeffer, Francis
• Sheckard, Jimmy (Glove Showing)
• Tannehill, Lee (Tannehill On Front)
• Wheat, Zack

Then we have the Sovereign group (34):
Group A (21) - not in P42

• Abbaticchio, Ed (Blue Sleeves)
• Ball, Neal (Cleveland)
• Bell, George (Follow Thru)
• Bescher, Bob (Hands In Air)
• Bridwell, Al (Portrait - With Cap)
• Camnitz, Howie (Arm At Side)
• Camnitz, Howie (Hands Above Head)
• Doyle, Larry (Portrait)
• Frill, John
• Herzog, Buck (Boston)
• Howell, Harry (Hand At Waist)
• Lake, Joe (St. Louis - Ball In Hand)
• McGraw, John (Portrait - With Cap)
• Meyers, Chief
• Needham, Tom
• Oldring, Rube (Batting)
• Payne, Fred
• Schulte, Wildfire (Back View)
• Smith, Happy
• Stovall, George (Batting)
• Tinker, Joe (Bat On Shoulder)

Group B (13) - In P42

• Bergen, Bill (Catching)
• Chance, Frank (Batting)
• Chase, Hal (Holding Trophy)
• Latham, Arlie
• Marquard, Rube (Pitching)
• Merkle, Fred (Throwing)
• Murray, Red (Portrait)
• Overall, Orval (Hands Waist Level)
• Schaefer, Germany (Washington)
• Schlei, Admiral (Batting)
• Schlei, Admiral (Portrait)
• Seymour, Cy (Portrait)
• Wiltse, Hooks (Portrait - With Cap)

Then the Piedmont 42, non-Sovereign group (28):

• Berger, Heinie
• Bradley, Bill (With Bat)
• Burch, Al (Fielding)
• Cobb, Ty (Bat Off Shoulder)
• Conroy, Wid (With Bat)
• Crawford, Sam (With Bat)
• Jennings, Hughie (One Hand Showing)
• Jennings, Hughie (Two Hands Showing)
• Jordan, Tim (Batting)
• Lajoie, Nap (With Bat)
• Lake, Joe (St. Louis - No Ball)
• Leach, Tommy (Bending Over)
• Leifield, Lefty (Batting)
• Manning, Rube (Pitching)
• McQuillan, George (With Bat)
• Mullin, George (With Bat)
• Overall, Orval (Hand At Face Level)
• Pelty, Barney (Vertical)*
• Pfeister, Jake (Throwing)
• Smith, Frank (Chicago & Boston)
• Steinfeldt, Harry (With Bat)
• Tinker, Joe (Bat Off Shoulder)
• Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Right Shoulder)
• White, Doc (Pitching)
• Wilhelm, Kaiser (With Bat)
• Willetts, Ed
• Willis, Vic (Batting)
• Wiltse, Hooks (Pitching)

And then there is Ames and Dougherty. They both appear in: Cycle 460, EPDG, Lennox Black, Old Mill, P350, P460-25, P460-42, PB, S350AG, SC350-25, SC350-30, SC460-25, SC460-42, and SC460-42OP

Ames also has: AB460, Uzit, Yellow Brown
Dougherty also has: BL460, Red Hindu

The original thought I had as I have been putting together the SC460-42 subset was that Ames and Dougherty were short printed, but within the same press runs (and sheets) and perhaps there are some undiscovered cards. But I would guess that Chris' notion that they were swapped out for each other at some point during press runs is a more probable explanation.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Ames also has: AB460, Uzit, Yellow Brown
Dougherty also has: BL460, Red Hindu

The original thought I had as I have been putting together the SC460-42 subset was that Ames and Dougherty were short printed, but within the same press runs (and sheets) and perhaps there are some undiscovered cards. But I would guess that Chris' notion that they were swapped out for each other at some point during press runs is a more probable explanation.

Erick, Thanks for this information. I agree with you that the swap theory seems more consistent with the apparent mutual exclusivity (as opposed to just higher/lower percentages) of Ames and Dougherty with those five backs. I guess time will tell whether mutual exclusivity holds up. Scot

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Ames also has: AB460, Uzit, Yellow Brown
Dougherty also has: BL460, Red Hindu

The original thought I had as I have been putting together the SC460-42 subset was that Ames and Dougherty were short printed, but within the same press runs (and sheets) and perhaps there are some undiscovered cards. But I would guess that Chris' notion that they were swapped out for each other at some point during press runs is a more probable explanation.

Another point in favor of the Ames for Dougherty swap theory is the ledger page indicating that packing of T206 cards with the Uzit brand began on March 18, 1911--very late in the process. In view of that timeline, it makes sense that Dougherty would not have been printed with that back.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by atx840

Boston, only known example and its a pretty low quality scan. I do not have a scan of the Chase dark cap.

Here is a higher quality version of the below layout.

Pardon me if I have misconstrued something here.

OK, I count 33 images in this scan. And, Chase (dark cap) is missing, which would bring the total to 34 subjects. Therefore Chris, why are you assuming that Dougherty
is not the 35th missing subject ?

You are trying to make the number "34" fit into your theory. However, as I see it there could actually be 35 subjects in this group of scraps (which includes Dougherty).


Furthermore, I assume that all these scraps have SWEET CAP 460/30 backs. Is this a correct observation by me ?

If this is true, then there should be 28 more scraps from the 350/460 series that were printed with the SWEET CAP 460/30 backs. Thoughts as to why these additional
28 have not been found ?


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by atx840

Boston, only known example and its a pretty low quality scan. I do not have a scan of the Chase dark cap.

Here is a higher quality version of the below layout.

This card just arrived, so I thought I'd post it with Chris' grid. Doesn't help us locate that Ames, however. I'll keep looking....

[mrvster]

congrats! great pick up I'm jealous

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mrvster

congrats! great pick up I'm jealous

Thanks, buddy. I hope it wasn't you that I outbid.