pete rose: What a Hitter & What a Scumbag !!

[clydepepper]

More information released today shows that he did bet on games he actually played in - which is another thing he absolutely denied.

How anyone can defend the pile of crap is beyond me.
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[ooo-ribay]

I'm not a Rose fan, but apropos of your signature, maybe you "have not attempted to understand" gambling addiction.

[nolemmings]

It's not the gambling addict that deserves disdain and contempt-- it is the liar. Even an addict who needs to lie to maintain his addiction could deserve some sympathy or understanding, I would suppose, but I assume a reformed or recovering addict would show remorse/contrition and acknowledgment of his past problems, not: a) deny and lie about betting on baseball at all for 11 years, and b) deny for 26 years and counting that he bet on baseball while a player.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I'm not a Rose fan, but apropos of your signature, maybe you "have not attempted to understand" gambling addiction.

You obviously misread my signature remarks.

rose is operating in the SAME culture & I DO understand it, I just don't condone it...or forgive it!

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

It's not the gambling addict that deserves disdain and contempt-- it is the liar. Even an addict who needs to lie to maintain his addiction could deserve some sympathy or understanding, I would suppose, but I assume a reformed or recovering addict would show remorse/contrition and acknowledgment of his past problems, not: a) deny and lie about betting on baseball at all for 11 years, and b) deny for 26 years and counting that he bet on baseball while a player.

The real problem is that he thinks he was and is bigger than the game. Instead of revering the game and protecting its integrity, he used it for personal gain with no regard to behavioral acceptances.

[Frank A]

But remember, he only bet on baseball as a manager and not a player. Right. Also he only bet on the Reds. Right. Who in their right mind would believe anything this lyer says.

[packs]

This guy is a bum. A man who feels remorse admits what he did without prompting. A coward continues to deny, deny, deny, and even after being caught red handed, will continue to dismiss the seriousness of what they've done.

Pete Rose should not ever be elected to the HOF and he should be shunned by baseball for eternity.

[JoeDfan]

Yeah, he bet on baseball. Yeah, he lied about it. We all know it.
But watching him play baseball was one of the greatest times in my life. I have seen a lot of people play, but I have never seen anyone, ANYONE, play like Pete.

We have juicers in baseball. We have racists, and domestic abusers, and coke fiends. Boozers and skirt chasers. Baseball is not squeaky clean. It never has been, and I doubt it ever will be. But that is what makes it unique, it is a history and a chronicle and a reflection of us. If baseball is dirty, it is only because we, the fans, made it that way.

I think it is unfair to keep Pete out of the Hall. I am not saying we should canonize the guy, and rename him St. Peter. He should NOT be allowed to manage any more teams.

I personally forgive Pete, and think that before it is too late, we should finally let him come home. But not for Pete. For me. I don't want to end my days thinking that I was too selfish to forgive someone who made stupid mistakes. I know I have made mine.

Ok, well, my mistakes didn't exactly involve ten grand on the Reds when I am the lead off hitter.
In fact, now that I think about it, my life mistakes don't seem too bad, compared to that.
Well, I don't know about all of you, but I suddenly feel much better about my life.

Thanks Pete!

[vintagetoppsguy]

“Scumbag“
“pile of crap“
“liar“
“bum“
“coward“


Yup, he's all that and a whole lot more. I agree with you guys. However, I do think he should be in the Hall of Fame. It's the HOF, not the Hall of Integrity.

Originally Posted by JoeDfan

I think it is unfair to keep Pete out of the Hall. I

+1

[RTK]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

“Scumbag“
“pile of crap“
“liar“
“bum“
“coward“


Yup, he's all that and a whole lot more. I agree with you guys. However, I do think he should be in the Hall of Fame. It's the HOF, not the Hall of Integrity. +1

Not while he's alive, if at all. It seemed as if baseball was moving towards Rose but I'm sure this shuts down any hope. Joe Jackson is more deserving of being forgiven and making the Hall. I always saw Jackson as "the canary in the mine" , if he made it in, Rose would. Rose is his own worst enemy, great player though in his prime, but I wonder when the evidence will come out he bet against his team.

[skelly]

I like Rose, and while he certainly has his faults, he's made for numerous debates, etc.... Let's face it, is Derek Jeter a good guy? I don't know him, but by all accounts, yes. Here's the thing. If all pro athletes were like Derek Jeter, pro sports would be pretty boring. It's the villains and personalities that make pro sports interesting. I'm also a A-Rod and a Richard Sherman fan just for the record. My one beef with Rose was the Ray Fosse incident in the All Star game. That was uncalled for.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by RTK

Not while he's alive, if at all. It seemed as if baseball was moving towards Rose but I'm sure this shuts down any hope. Joe Jackson is more deserving of being forgiven and making the Hall. I always saw Jackson as "the canary in the mine" , if he made it in, Rose would. Rose is his own worst enemy, great player though in his prime, but I wonder when the evidence will come out he bet against his team.

Rick - I wholeheartedly agree with 'not while he's alive' - if he was to be inducted while still living, he'd be getting better treatment than Santo, who obviously deserved better.

It does not matter if he bet against his team - if he only bets ON his team at certain times, it has the same effect. Being the manager or one of the regular players, he was in a position to directly affect the outcome of the games he bet on, and thusly on even the ones he did not bet on.

Remember, there is a sign in EVERY Major League clubhouse that states betting on Baseball in 'taboo' (I'm not sure of the actual wording, but the message is crystal clear).

[packs]

It's not really about whether or not Rose is a good guy. It's about whether or not he broke cardinal rules of baseball, which he did do. He could have broken all the rules he wanted in his personal life, but when you break the rules of baseball, it's not unreasonable to be punished. He knew the punishment before he broke the rules and he did it anyway. He is banned because he should be banned.

[Mountaineer1999]

Originally Posted by RTK

Not while he's alive, if at all. It seemed as if baseball was moving towards Rose but I'm sure this shuts down any hope. Joe Jackson is more deserving of being forgiven and making the Hall. I always saw Jackson as "the canary in the mine" , if he made it in, Rose would. Rose is his own worst enemy, great player though in his prime, but I wonder when the evidence will come out he bet against his team.

I'm not sure how Jow Jackson is more deserving... he actually threw World Series games and possibly regular season games in 1920. Buck Weaver maybe... but not joe jackson. I say never let any of them in.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I'm not sure how Jow Jackson is more deserving... he actually threw World Series games and possibly regular season games in 1920. Buck Weaver maybe... but not joe jackson. I say never let any of them in.

It's questionable that Jackson threw any games. His actual performance suggests that he didn’t. There is no doubt that Rose bet on games as a player and manager. Pete knew the rules when he put himself above the game. Now he is paying the price, forever banned from the game and hof. The idea that players would ignore the cardinal rule of baseball and would want induct Pete makes no sense.

[RTK]

Originally Posted by rats60

It's questionable that Jackson threw any games. His actual performance suggests that he didn’t. There is no doubt that Rose bet on games as a player and manager. Pete knew the rules when he put himself above the game. Now he is paying the price, forever banned from the game and hof. The idea that players would ignore the cardinal rule of baseball and would want induct Pete makes no sense.

Yup, I was under the impression he played pretty well.

"Debate has raged ever since over the extent of Jackson’s participation in the scheme. He claimed his teammates gave his name to the gamblers even though he hadn’t agreed to participate, and the other players admitted that Jackson never attended meetings about the fix. Though Jackson signed a confession in 1920 stating that he was paid $5,000 (out of the $20,000 he was promised), he later asserted that a team lawyer manipulated him into signing a document he didn’t fully understand. (Jackson never learned to read or write.) He also said he tried to return the money and talk to White Sox owner Charles Comiskey about the plan both before and after the series, but was rebuffed.

And finally, there’s the matter of Jackson’s play on the field. During the 1919 championship, the slugger made no errors and racked up 12 hits, a World Series record that stood until 1964. His batting average for the series (.375) was the highest on either team. If Jackson did try to throw the championship, his supporters argue, he did a pretty poor job. In any event, after the 1921 ban Jackson played “outlaw” ball under an assumed name before retiring to his hometown of Greenville, South Carolina, where he eventually owned a liquor store. He made various efforts to be reinstated, all of which were denied, before his death in 1951."

[Mountaineer1999]

Originally Posted by rats60

It's questionable that Jackson threw any games. His actual performance suggests that he didn’t. There is no doubt that Rose bet on games as a player and manager. Pete knew the rules when he put himself above the game. Now he is paying the price, forever banned from the game and hof. The idea that players would ignore the cardinal rule of baseball and would want induct Pete makes no sense.

I don't think there is much doubt that he participated in throwing these games. He even took payment and testified to this.
Most of his stats were padded at irrelevant points in the games and in the Cicotte game when they were actually trying to win.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I don't think there is much doubt that he participated in throwing these games. He even took payment and testified to this.
Most of his stats were padded at irrelevant points in the games and in the Cicotte game when they were actually trying to win.

There is no evidence that he took payment.The grand jury record of his testimony shows no confession, that is a myth. He was aquitted and later successfully sued Comisky for back pay. 3 legal proceedings in each he claimed innocence. After they were banned, the 7 said that he wasn't part of the fix.

He padded his stats? He set a record for hits, 12, and had an OPS of almost 1.000. He had a truly remarkable series if he was able to do that while throwing games. There are many myths around the Black Sox story. The only thing we know about Jackson is he knew of the fix. That is enough to keep him banned from baseball and out of the hof.

[Mountaineer1999]

Originally Posted by rats60

There is no evidence that he took payment.The grand jury record of his testimony shows no confession, that is a myth. He was aquitted and later successfully sued Comisky for back pay. 3 legal proceedings in each he claimed innocence. After they were banned, the 7 said that he wasn't part of the fix.

He padded his stats? He set a record for hits, 12, and had an OPS of almost 1.000. He had a truly remarkable series if he was able to do that while throwing games. There are many myths around the Black Sox story. The only thing we know about Jackson is he knew of the fix. That is enough to keep him banned from baseball and out of the hof.

He padded his stats at irrelevant points. His home run came when they were already down by 8 runs. He knew if he got singles, Risberg and Gandil batting behind him would never drive him in. in the field he played routine fly balls into triples and played out of position. There were a couple games when he went all out because he didn't know the fix was still on or when they were trying to win Ciccote game 5 for next year's contract negotiations.
I thought his grand jury testimony was hidden by comisky but turned up at the Milwaukee hearings four years later when Jackson was try to sue Comisky? And when they turned up the judge found Jackson in contempt and sent him off to jail for perjury.

[ooo-ribay]

Did you catch his stand up routine on the ASG pregame tonight? Bad.

I grew up in Ohio during the Big Red Machine years. I never liked Pete. That said, I say ban him from baseball but put him in the Hall. It's a museum of greatness and Pete was a great....a gambling addict and not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but a great.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Pete Rose's wife though is really hot. You have to hand it to the guy for that..

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Pete Rose's wife though is really hot. You have to hand it to the guy for that..

She is. But even she tells him he's not supposed to be in the hall.

[benjoman]

What if players like Clemens, McGuire, Canseco, Braun, Rodriguez and others to many for naming get into the Hall. Is that really fair? They are flat out cheaters no matter how one looks at it. If an Olympic metal can be stripped because of doping, then a lifetime ban should be in place on players for the Hall. Gambling is an addiction, juicing is a choice!! I know many hate Rose but his accomplishments were pure not chemically enhanced!!

[HRBAKER]

The first time he bet on baseball it was a choice. There are plenty of other things to bet on. He has had years and years of opportunities to come clean and exhibit a modicom of remorse. Poor Pete. What everyone else has done matters not.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by benjoman

What if players like Clemens, McGuire, Canseco, Braun, Rodriguez and others to many for naming get into the Hall. Is that really fair? They are flat out cheaters no matter how one looks at it. If an Olympic metal can be stripped because of doping, then a lifetime ban should be in place on players for the Hall. Gambling is an addiction, juicing is a choice!! I know many hate Rose but his accomplishments were pure not chemically enhanced!!

Braun used an unauthorized substance (not a performance enhancer) to heal a calf injury that had been bothering him for nearly the entire 2011 season. Was it wrong? Yes. Should he have been suspended? Yes. Does that even begin to compare to betting on baseball games (including games he was playing in, and managing) for years, and then lying about it for decades?

Not in the slightest.

[EvilKing00]

I think pete should be in the HOF as well as Joe jacksan and a few other "bad guys" like mentioned before the guy was an awesome player and my kid and eventually grand kids should be able to see him in the hof. the Hof is a museum... a history of the best players.

here are my complete thoughts -

http://metsmerizedonline.com/2014/01...-of-fame.html/

[RaidonCollects]

I am personally against Pete Rose, and him ever being entered back into the hall.

Let me tell you a story told to me by a former ML baseball player: (this was probably in the 1990's)

We had just finished a Players' Association meeting, and I was sitting at a table in a restaurant with Yogi (Berra), Juan (Marichal) and some shortstop from St. Louis. We could hear a conversation on the table next to us. A small girl, maybe 7-8 years old asked one of the players on the table to sign her cap. The player angrily denied "I'm busy," but said the girl could have the signature for $60. She ran away crying to her family. From Yogi and Marichal's table we could hear what happened, we went over to the girl and asked to borrow her cap, then we marched over to the player. We put the cap in front of him, and demanded "now sign it, or there'll be trouble."

The player was Rose.... obviously.

Good ol' Pete

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

I think pete should be in the HOF as well as Joe jacksan and a few other "bad guys" like mentioned before the guy was an awesome player and my kid and eventually grand kids should be able to see him in the hof. the Hof is a museum... a history of the best players.

here are my complete thoughts -

http://metsmerizedonline.com/2014/01...-of-fame.html/

'grand kids' can see him in enough places, just not in a place of honor.
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[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

'grand kids' can see him in enough places, just not in a place of honor.
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"honor" is a big word for so many that don't deserve to be in the HOF to begin with...If Pete doesn't deserve to be in the HOF, there are several that need to be booted out as well.

I'm all for him not being allowed in baseball, but to keep him out of the HOF is a shame. He is one of the greatest players in history and for that, he deserves a plaque. We need to get off of our high horse about honor and such...the Hall is a lot of politics to begin with...look who does the voting...such a joke.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This extensive discussion concludes it is likely Cobb bet on a game.

http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/ana...burgess05.html

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by RaidonCollects

I am personally against Pete Rose, and him ever being entered back into the hall.

Let me tell you a story told to me by a former ML baseball player: (this was probably in the 1990's)

We had just finished a Players' Association meeting, and I was sitting at a table in a restaurant with Yogi (Berra), Juan (Marichal) and some shortstop from St. Louis. We could hear a conversation on the table next to us. A small girl, maybe 7-8 years old asked one of the players on the table to sign her cap. The player angrily denied "I'm busy," but said the girl could have the signature for $60. She ran away crying to her family. From Yogi and Marichal's table we could hear what happened, we went over to the girl and asked to borrow her cap, then we marched over to the player. We put the cap in front of him, and demanded "now sign it, or there'll be trouble."

The player was Rose.... obviously.

Good ol' Pete

This doesn't sound like the Rose I have heard about or experienced. He was very gracious to me on three different occasions. The final time I met with him at a breakfast meeting that he was a guest speaker for. At the end of the meeting, he signed balls for everyone in attendance. When I approached him, he signed two balls for my sons, and then reached behind the table and pulled out two bats that he signed for them as well.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

This doesn't sound like the Rose I have heard about or experienced. He was very gracious to me on three different occasions. The final time I met with him at a breakfast meeting that he was a guest speaker for. At the end of the meeting, he signed balls for everyone in attendance. When I approached him, he signed two balls for my sons, and then reached behind the table and pulled out two bats that he signed for them as well.

I haven't heard anything as negative pertaining to Pete as what was stated above either, but maybe that was his turnaround point? Some people don't see the "light" until something smacks them in the face...maybe this was that moment.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

I haven't heard anything as negative pertaining to Pete as what was stated above either, but maybe that was his turnaround point? Some people don't see the "light" until something smacks them in the face...maybe this was that moment.

believe me, he hasnt seen the light.

[RichardSimon]

In pre internet days, when I was doing shows regularly, I heard from several people that Pete had a woman in every city in the Natl. League. According to what I heard he never tried to hide it and his wife knew about it. Embarrassing her was never something he worried about.
I also heard that he knowingly used his people to forge his signature in situations where he was paid to sign in private sessions.
Again, these are stories I heard from others, I have no proof.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

In pre internet days, when I was doing shows regularly, I heard from several people that Pete had a woman in every city in the Natl. League. According to what I heard he never tried to hide it and his wife knew about it. Embarrassing her was never something he worried about.
I also heard that he knowingly used his people to forge his signature in situations where he was paid to sign in private sessions.
Again, these are stories I heard from others, I have no proof.

I'm glad they take character and personality into consideration when they put someone into the Hall...

I feel like there would only be a handful of guys in the HOF if the committee made sure they were good on and off the field before entering.

[tacprc]

Pete Rose is my all-time favorite baseball player, and his hustling persona has been a big inspiration to me in my life. I hope that he is reinstated and elected to the Hall of Fame.

[Runscott]

Rose is a tool, but I would put him in the HOF. I have personally watched him behave like a tool twice in person. Ironically, I almost inadvertently met him at the Cleveland National - he walked right past me while I was standing at the elevator and the guys at our drinking table saw it, but I didn't. I'm glad - he was unpleasant on those occasions in 1973 and 1985, and that was before it was proven publicly that he is a disgrace to baseball. If I had thought about it, I might have brought a photo for him to get signed, labeled 'Biggest SOB in baseball', just to see his reaction to it.

Here's Rose being an SOB in 1973 - he had just told a bunch of kids, including my little brother, that he would go put his stuff on the bus and then come out and sign our autographs. He went to the back of the bus and smiled out the window at us - he didn't come out.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by tacprc

Pete Rose is my all-time favorite baseball player, and his hustling persona has been a big inspiration to me in my life. I hope that he is reinstated and elected to the Hall of Fame.

Oh he certainly was a hustler. Still is.

[DHogan]

The only hall Pete should be in is the one leading to the bathroom. All the while with him mumbling to himself, am I gonna make it. Am I gonna make it.

[Romahawk]

I see on the nightly news here in our area that the commissioner will give Pete his answer to his request for reinstatement... I personally hope the commissioner approves it and that Pete gets voted into the hall of fame where he belongs.. There have been few better at the game than Pete...

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by Romahawk

I see on the nightly news here in our area that the commissioner will give Pete his answer to his request for reinstatement... I personally hope the commissioner approves it and that Pete gets voted into the hall of fame where he belongs.. There have been few better at the game than Pete...

Shouldn't that last line be, "There have been few bettors at the game than Pete..."(?)

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by DHogan

The only hall Pete should be in is the one leading to the bathroom. All the while with him mumbling to himself, am I gonna make it. Am I gonna make it.

And Dave, your reasons are????