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#101
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#102
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Yes but there aren't very many relievers in the HOF. You need to be the top of the top. I just don't think he ever was. Lee Smith's not in for the same reason.
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#103
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My reason for no Hoffman
I would keep Hoffman out because was too much of a specialist. If he would be inducted he would have the 3rd fewest IP with 1089.1 over an 18year career. The two lower is Sutter with 1042 in 12 years and Paige with 476. With Paige being in for his Negro League play this would put Hoffman 2nd to only Sutter by 47.1 IP with a difference of 6 years of play.
Over Hoffman's 18 year career he had only 54.1 IP more than games played in. With 23 over games played coming in his RC season. This means that in the 17 following seasons he only had 31.1 more IP than games played. Even L. Smith had only 1 GS and still recorded 267.1 innings more than games played in an 18 year career.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/bn2cardz/albums Last edited by bn2cardz; 12-18-2015 at 05:29 PM. |
#104
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Hoffman was better than Smith.
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#105
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My Ballot:
Jeff Bagwell
Ken Griffey Jr. Trevor Hoffman Mike Piazza Tim Raines Curt Schilling and because I have a few extra spots: Nomar Garciaparra Larry Walker If I had been on the Veterans Committee: Sam Breadon Wes Ferrell
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Signed 1953 Topps set: 264/274 (96.35 %) |
#106
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Bonds
Raines McGriff Trammel Griffey Hoffman |
#107
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Christmas Eve update
Now with 99 votes made public accounting for 22% of the ballots it seems clear that the best chance is for the following four still.
Griffey 100% (99) -Only needs to be on 68.1% of the remaining ballots Piazza 89.9% (89) -Only needs to be on 70.9% of the remaining ballots Bagwell 83.8% (83) -Only needs to be on 72.6% of the remaining ballots Raines 80.8% (80) -Only needs to be on 73.5% of the remaining ballots So these four players can maintain a lower percentage of ballots than they have achieved from the first 99 ballots and they still can make it in. https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?...C7uZHAmcVGWgwE
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/bn2cardz/albums |
#108
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Tim Raines
Larry Walker |
#109
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__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#110
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I have a question for the HOF voters. If a player isn't worthy of getting in their first year of eligibility, how are they worthy a year or more later? The way I look at it is you are either good enough to be in the Hall or your not. After retirement players stats don't get better with age.
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#111
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Then there are guys like Duke Snider, Eddie Mathews and Orlando Cepeda. Clearly Hall of Fame players, but not quite on the same level as the true legends of the game. There is a hierarchy within the Hall, and I believe the voters handle their ballots to reflect this. Some will put their guys on their ballot right away, while some make players they eventually vote for wait a while.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#112
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Griffey
Bonds Piazza Kent As far as Kent being compared to a 1st and 3rd baseman isn't right. His position was 2nd, and he should be compared as such. As for his defense- saying his defense was horrible is a little harsh. I'd say it's pretty avg. People are saying Vizquel is a HOF'er. For what, because of his defense?
__________________
Always Buying game used BATS A portion of my collection on GUA: https://gameusedauthority.com/all-co...member_id=pUnl Last edited by UnVme7; 01-03-2016 at 10:18 PM. |
#113
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Maybe the HOf should have 2 buildings.
One for the immortals like Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Ted Williams, Walter Johnson, Stan Musial, Willie Mays, Christy Mathewson, Clemente, Aaron, Mantle, etc,... And another building for guys like Kent, Cepeda, Jeff Bagwell, Trevor Hoffman Mike Piazza, Tim Raines, Curt Schilling, Nomar Garciaparra, Larry Walker, etc,... that writers, broadcasters, and fans can debate til the end of time. |
#114
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I don't agree with that. Sometimes a player's career takes on a different context as time goes on. Goose Gossage is a good example of that. Today closers pitch one inning. Over time people saw the contribution of Gossage as having a greater significance given the nature of the position today. That's likely why he's in. Other times there's a high level of competition for votes. So even though a player has a HOF career, he may enter the voting at a bad time where people are forced to vote for one person over another. That could delay election like it did for Biggio. Last edited by packs; 01-04-2016 at 08:09 AM. |
#115
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Last edited by dgo71; 01-04-2016 at 04:07 PM. |
#116
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Gossage was a closer when the position required someone to pitch multiple innings. Guys like Hoffman coming into a new inning with the bases empty, and with a lead, didn't know pressure like Goose and his contemporaries did. Relievers today would panic if they had to come in with 1 out in the 8th and runners on 1st and 3rd, and THEN pitch the 9th. The game changed immensely and voters finally realized just how impressive it was to do what Gossage did. As far as competition for votes, that could be fixed by allowing voters to vote for as many candidates as they like. The ballot is already vetted to a large degree before reaching the voters, so my opinion is that if the player's name appears on the ballot someone should be allowed to cast a vote for them without having to sacrifice a vote for someone else. That way the folks trying to keep Alan Trammell and Lee Smith on the ballot would still be able to vote for the slam-dunk guys like Greg Maddux without worry that their candidate might not meet the minimum requirement. |
#117
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#118
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And Murphy, while a two-time MVP, was never on Bonds' level. Murphy's best season, by WAR, was a 7.7 in 1987. His two MVP seasons he had a 7.1 and a 6.1. Look at the seasons Bonds had just in Pittsburgh: a 9.7 WAR in 1990, a 9.0 in 1992, and 8.0 in 1989, and a 7.9 in 1991. Then, as a Giant, he was off the charts. From 1980 to 1990, Murphy played nearly every game, every season. By 1990, his age 34 season, he'd compiled only a 46.9 WAR. By 1992, when he left for San Francisco at age 28, Barry Bonds had already compiled a 50.1 WAR. He compiled a higher WAR in 1,000 games than Murphy did in 1,983 games. And Don Mattingly didn't really have seven great seasons. He had three (1984-1986), one really good season (1987), and a couple other pretty good seasons (1988 and 1989). If Don hadn't hurt his back, I feel he'd have been a Hall of Famer. He was a great hitter and run producer, and an exceptional glove man. It's too bad, because I always really liked him.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#119
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That may be but in 2013 5 players got more than 50 percent of the vote and in 2014 3 players got elected. So Biggio had a fight ahead of him when he entered the vote.
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#120
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#121
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Last edited by dgo71; 01-05-2016 at 11:28 AM. |
#122
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Day of morning look
With the reveal tonight, the ones to expect something from are still the following four.
With 194 ballots made public accounting for 43.1% of the ballots: Griffey 100% (194) -Only needs to be on 56.3% of the remaining ballots Piazza 86.1% (167) -Only needs to be on 66.8% of the remaining ballots Bagwell 76.8% (149) -Only needs to be on 73.8% of the remaining ballots Raines 76.3% (148) -Only needs to be on 74.2% of the remaining ballots Bagwell and Raines have dropped significantly since the last update. I would not be surprised if it is only Griffey and Piazza with Bagwell and Raines being just below induction as Piazza was last year. https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?...C7uZHAmcVGWgwE
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/bn2cardz/albums Last edited by bn2cardz; 01-06-2016 at 02:16 PM. |
#123
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__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#124
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Do you consider amphetamines performance enhancers?
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#125
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Not nearly to the degree of steroids. I equate greenies and all that crap to Gaylord Perry's spitball. Yes, players were more alert. No, they didn't (generally) see their home run totals spike by 200% in any given season. The effects anabolic steroids have to a person's body is night and day compared to amphetamines.
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#126
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Evidently Bonds felt he needed to cheat.
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos "Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years." |
#127
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I would be shocked if Bonds ever gets in. JMO....
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#128
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Yes, but I pretty much agree with Derek's opinion. I know that Mays and others have admitted to using greenies. Greenies, to my knowledge, didn't completely alter a player's body type, add muscle, help players recover faster from injuries, etc. I could of course be wrong, as I haven't done serious reading as to the differences between the two (from a recognizable, expert source). All I know is that when you look at a player like Henry Aaron, he was 170 lbs in 1956. In 1975, he was 180 lbs. Barry Bonds in 1987 was 165 lbs. By 2007, he weighed 230 lbs.
Bonds added 65 pounds to his frame. I know that the kind of weight training done today really didn't exist back in the 1950s and 1960s, at least it wasn't done in Major League Baseball. But conditioning and exercise program aside, Bonds adding 65 pounds to his frame just seems unnatural to me. Edit to add, I would be interested in your position on the two, Peter. I respect your opinion.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. Last edited by the 'stache; 01-11-2016 at 06:27 AM. |
#129
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Will they ever hold another Negro League vote?
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#130
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I seem to remember them saying that the vote in 2007 would be the last time they considered Negro League players but I could be misremembering. I sure hope they hold another as there are still several viable candidates, most notably Buck O'Neill and Minnie Minoso.
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#131
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. .
__________________
. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson “If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente |
#132
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If Minoso makes it into the HOF it will be for his major league career so he is probably still eligible.
__________________
Successful transactions with: Bfrench00, TonyO, Mintacular, Patriots74, Sean1125, Bocabirdman, Rjackson44, KC Doughboy, Kailes2872 |
#133
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I can count the number of players better than bonds in history doing baseball things on one hand...so it's an injustice that he's not in yet. I dont begrudge cobb for not hitting more home runs in the deadball era. I dont begrudge ruth doing ruthian things against only white players...so why should i penalize bonds putting up video game numbers against his juiced up peers?
Hes a hofer in any era, but because hes a byproduct of the ped era people dont want to give the man his dues alongside cobb ruth and williams. Hey bbwaa dinosaurs...become extinct already! |
#134
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I think there's more to it than that. Bonds was defiant, wouldn't admit what he did, more or less had a man do time for him, and cheated for the most superficial reasons you can name. He's a blight on the sport.
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#135
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Cobb was a raging racist, ruth a womanizer, mantle was a drunk....money buys you privilege. I dont look at pro athletes to uphold our moral virtues.
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#136
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BTW, Cobb being racist in a period of our history that was predominated by racists, and Ruth womanizing and Mantle drinking when those two things are still rampant today, none of those qualities changed the stats those men put up on the field. The same can't be said for Bonds' actions. Last edited by dgo71; 01-12-2016 at 06:28 PM. |
#137
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And you can't assume everyone of his peers were juicing either.
He's the one who chose to cheat, I can certainly hold that against him.
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos "Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years." |
#138
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Cobb was not a raging racist. He built low-income housing in Georgia specifically for African American residents, would often sell them land for nothing, and fought for integrated play long before it was generally accepted. “The negro has the right to compete in sports and who’s to say they have not?” -1952 |
#139
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i take it back on cobb then, respect him even more. everything else i said i still believe. they call it the ped era for a reason, don't think it's just some isolated cases in each locker room. bonds/clemens was the greatest of that era, they should be in. thank god their votes are trending upward so i believe they will be in eventually. just kind of odd piazza is in before bonds...
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#140
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 01-15-2016 at 08:43 PM. |
#141
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