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the ruth wasnt my thread and i asked the poster who Wanted to buy the card, what price range would he pay...i asked that first. Take a look. He didnt answer yet. So I asked him again. It was not a 'FS': For Sale listing by me as the card is in my personal collection but if someone wants to buy it, i could sell it potentially. If it was a For Sale listing by me i would have a price for sure. So that was your big perry mason moment? In addition, i did show a past sale of a PSA 4 of the same card. I know you like to compare a PSA 8 OC with a past sale of PSA 8 and im unbelievable! I guess you agreed with everything else i posted. Oh and yeah your response didnt come off as arrogant either, you are such a straight shooter.. You also claim you dont try to stir the pot, this thread is about 3000 hits versus total bases by the way. . Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-09-2016 at 06:53 PM. |
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#54
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Thanks CMIZE i changed it to Mays.... Please post SMR next to all of your listings (for the ones not OC as I do not think there is SMR for them unless want to reduce the grade by 2) or if you need help i can assist you. If you think thats lame, then you are describing what you did on the Mays b/s/t thread. Thanks
Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-09-2016 at 06:59 PM. |
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You are more than welcome 1952Boy
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#56
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Ok so you are giving me permission to post SMR on your b/s/t threads Ill keep this thread when the time arrives. However you also like to argue with the pricing on b/s/t threads and talk down others that support the pricing. Let me know if i can do that too.
Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-09-2016 at 07:06 PM. |
#57
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You asked me to post SMR's. Are you really this goofy??
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#58
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So you admit it was goofy when you went by SMR on the 1951 Mays and it obvious you troll my posts and are biased.
Anyway you can post the last word if your post is the last post on the thread. Im sure I will see your nonsense when trolling me on other threads so we can go back and forth on there if Leon allows you too. |
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Last edited by CMIZ5290; 08-09-2016 at 07:10 PM. |
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YES he is. I have him on ignore so please quit quoting his posts so I don't have to see them.
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#61
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The lady doth protest too much, methinks Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-09-2016 at 07:22 PM. |
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__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits |
#64
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sorry, 3000 hits doesn't mean jack. It just doesn't. you can stomp your feet and whine until you turn blue and it doesn't change a thing. Your viewpoint is simply antiquated and wrong and based on a fundamental misunderstanding of baseball. (which, isn't really your fault, bad information was preached as gospel by lot's of so called "experts" for a long time, but we evolve, we learn we understand more and more now than ever before, and 3000 hits ,in and of itself, simply isn't an indicator of production. hitting 5% above avg isn't all that great.)
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits |
#65
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Last edited by CMIZ5290; 08-10-2016 at 04:46 PM. |
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I guess I viewed the question as a comparison, as in is 3000 hits a bigger deal than say 500 hrs or 300 wins. I'm going to refer my list below to the "marginal 3000 hit hofers", like say a biggio. Here is why I think it is a big deal. Most if not all with 3000 hits have:
1. Longevity and health 2. Plate discipline with two strikes 3. A very good eye or terrific hand eye coordination 4. Good on base and high runs scored numbers 5. Great hit and run possibilities 6. Extending innings to roll over lineups Players like Craig biggio increased the success rates of power hitters like Bagwell. I will concede that some of this is more national league specific, but I am more impressed with a 3000 hit guy than a 500 hr guy, all other things being equal. |
#67
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Last edited by CMIZ5290; 08-10-2016 at 05:55 PM. |
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#69
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I guess that's why statistics too continue to evolve over the years, along with their signifigance. Stats can be used to make any point you want them to, and thinking there's no difference between stats from 100, 50 or even 20 years ago is just simply incorrect.
Last edited by dgo71; 08-10-2016 at 07:13 PM. |
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#71
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Man i wasnt aware that i logged on at 5 pm.....Not only do you troll but you make time in your life to find out when I log on? Your getting stranger by the day.
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#72
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It's really not that hard to get 200 hits a season if you bat leadoff, and stay healthy. And, to his credit, Ichiro did that just that--stay healthy--for more than a decade to start his career. He also had some real good seasons, average wise. But let's be clear about two things. One, between 2001 and 2010, the "200 hit season streak", he averaged a whopping 734 plate appearances a season. And Ichiro doesn't walk, well, at all. 620 walks in 10,335 plate appearances is pretty piss poor. His .314 lifetime batting average is outstanding. But, comparatively, his lifetime OBP, for a future Hall of Famer, is quite low at .357. It's driven almost entirely by his average. So, he got a ton of official at bats with which to get those 200 hits. In fact, he averaged 678 at bats a season between 2001-2010. With 678 at bats, you don't even have to hit .300 to get 200 hits. In fact, if you hit .295, you'll get 200 hits on the dot.
Ichiro hit only .303 in 2005. That was his fifth season in the Majors, and the fifth in a row he'd get 200 hits. Know how many players, since 1901, have hit .303 and gotten 200 hits? Three, including Ichiro. And the last time it happened was 76 years ago. 2005-Ichiro Suzuki, 206 hits, 679 at bats, .303 AVG 1930-Taylor Douthit, 201 hits, 664 at bats, .303 AVG 1940-Doc Cramer, 200 hits, 661 at bats, .303 AVG 99.999% of the time, the run would have ended right there, and this "200 hit season streak" talk would be a distant memory. The only reason the streak continued was because of the sheer number of times he came to the plate. Secondly, all he does is hit singles. He had 262 hits in 2004, and 225 of those hits were singles. 24 doubles, 5 triples, 8 home runs. How does a guy that fast only have 29 doubles and triples among 262 hits? Hand-eye coordination is one thing. And it's certainly hard to hit at the Major League level. Hitting the curve might be the hardest thing to do in professional sports. But it is infinitely easier to hit for high average when you're just dinking the ball into the outfield. When you're not hitting for power, you can shorten your swing. This allows slightly more time for the hitter to pick up the pitch. And of all the hitters with 3,000 career hits, Ichiro has, by a wide margin, the fewest extra base hits. 556 extra base hits, 2,444 singles. As has been mentioned earlier, his career OPS + is only 105. He's 5% above the average Major League hitter for his career because he provides virtually no power. In fact, he's lucky he got to 3,000 hits at all. Between 2011 and 2015, the last five seasons, his OPS + has been 85--15% below Major League average. He's been worth 3.8 bWAR (3.6 fWAR). That's about 0.7 fWAR a season; basically, a fringe replacement level player. I like Ichiro a lot. Great guy, and a fantastic pure hitter. But all the hyperbole I've been reading, like "he's the greatest hitter of this generation", is making me absolutely nuts. That's patently false. Too many guys have hit for average AND power, and have had a better OBP in the process. Ichiro is a great base stealer, and a real good (but not as great as some believe) fielder. But his dearth of power hurts his all-time ranking. He's a Hall of Famer, and will get in quickly (first year of eligibility, likely, because of his popularity). But he's just not on the level of the all-time greats, and to suggest he is is disingenuous.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#73
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Who is more valuable? A player who hits .314 with a .700 OPS, or a hitter who hits .297 with a .950 OPS?
Power matters. There is more to hitting a baseball than batting average. Ichiro has no power to speak of, and his ability to get on base, beyond hitting singles, is sorely lacking. That's why he's only 5% above average. OPS + factors in OBP and SLG, and adjusts for ballpark factors. Ichiro hit .314 (.3136). Hank Greenberg, right below him on the all-time average leader board, hit .314 (.3135). Ichiro had 3,878 total bases in 9,573 at bats. A .405 SLG. Hank Greenberg had 3,142 total bases in 5,193 at bats. A .605 SLG. Greenberg had the same average, lifetime, but brought incredible power to his game. And a home run always trumps a single. That's not all. Ichiro walked 620 times in 10,339 plate appearances. He has a .357 OBP career. Greenberg walked 852 times, or 232 times more in 4,241 fewer plate appearances (6,098 PAs total). His career OBP was .412. Ichiro's career .762 OPS is only 5% above league average for his career. Meanwhile, Greenberg's 1.017 OPS is 58% better than league average for his career. Two .314 career hitters. Ichrio with a career 60.0 WAR (58.1 fWAR) in 2,455 games played. Greenberg with a career 57.5 WAR (61.1 fWAR) in 1,394 games played. Those WAR metrics take everything into consideration-hitting for power and average, OBP, speed, fielding. Who would you rather have? Quote:
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#74
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correct 'Stace, hits just because they are hits doesnt make you an all time great cause you can hit .295 and get 200 hits. Total bases accounts for power and walks which Ichiro does neither.
To have 3000 hits yet not have 4000 total bases really says something in terms of lack of power and getting walks. I appreciate your use of real numbers. Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-11-2016 at 06:06 AM. |
#75
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Walks are the most overrated stat in baseball. The goal of the game is to score runs. A walk only scores a run when the bases are loaded, which is rare. A hit scores the runner from 3rd almost every time, from 2nd most of the time and from 1st a lot of the time on extra base hits. This even totally ignores the strategy of walking a guy with 1b open and 1 out to set up the double play or pitching around a hitter with 2 outs to get out a weaker hitter. I would rather my star hit a pitch out of the strike zone than allowing himself to be pitched around. Give me a guy with 3000 hits over a guy with a bunch meaningless walks. WAR is pretty much worthless. It over values walks. The values for fielding are random. Certain positions are over valued and others are under valued. Baseball reference even completely changed how they calculated it a few years ago. Fangraphics has their own system which varies from BR. |
#76
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Couple of interesting stats for a guy who apparently is only better than 5 percent of all major leaguers and is just some slappy dinky hitter:
Ichiro has led the league in intentional walks 3 times Ichiro has more intentional walks in his 16 seasons than A-rod does in his 22. Ichiro's offensive WAR is nearly 10 points higher than Jose Bautista's, even with Joey Bats having a 132 RC+. Last edited by packs; 08-11-2016 at 07:38 AM. |
#77
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I don't mind the idea of using total bases as a preferred metric. If we are talking lead off hitters one could make the argument that on base percentage is more important than either. My main issue with total bases is that the steroid era skewed the validity of comparative analysis because of the home run party. I'm more impressed with say Carl Yastrzemski total base numbers from the late 1960's than any total base numbers from the 90's.
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#78
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There was another poster that talked about walks not meaning much compared to hits because you can drive in runs with hits. I agree with that. However it was already assumed the total base guys drive in more runs that then the ichiro type 3000 hit guys so the walks was just an icing on the cake and not a main part of the argument Basically, i just not a big fan of 'participation awards' If you play long enough you are going to get a certain amount of slap hits even into your 40s. I would contend a replacement level player from AAA who played 23 years in the big leagues would get close to 3000 hits but nowhere near 4500 total bases... Yes ichiro did it in far less, However we are going by totals not by how many years when doing a 3000 hit countdown. There is no hits per game countdown..... Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-11-2016 at 11:04 AM. |
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Well factor into your perspective that only about 1 percent of all major leaguers have careers spanning 20 or more seasons.
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#80
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Last edited by dgo71; 08-11-2016 at 11:23 AM. |
#81
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The participation award argument does cross over to 300 wins as well with guys like niekro and sutton, but again, I do think you underestimate just how amazing it is to be able to keep your body and mind in major league condition at 40 plus. I'm 34 and can't move the way I did at 24. To be 40 and be productive on a major league roster is a pretty freakish thing.
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#82
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It wasnt whether 3000 hits is impressive, its whether compared to total bases whether its that impressive. None of those guys you mentioned are in the top 30 in total bases. Yet there is no mention of any total bases milestones but people go crazy and buy relic cards of 3000 hits. Lots of guys are better than replacement level players that wasnt my point Yes participating in the major leagues 20 years means you are a pro baseball player that obviously offered a lot , but it says nothing of whether you were elite. Cumulative stats can make someone look elite though when you add 20 years versus a guy that only played 5 years in total though at an elite level. ....it doesnt matter if only 1 percent ever played 20 years, that has nothing to do about whether you are elite. I can find lots of players that did things that 99 percent of the players didn't and that would also mean nothing in terms of measuring an elite player. Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-11-2016 at 09:16 PM. |
#83
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We arent grading on a curve here...impressive at 40 for ichiro still for him means replacement level. Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-11-2016 at 08:38 PM. |
#84
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top 60 career TB leaders....are #41 BAINES (longevity / 2800+ hits- OK, maybe) and #57 Luis Gonzalez (an OK player but, um...NO), really HOFers based solely on your argument of "HOF-worthy" underappreciated TB's???? granted, the BBWAA and veterans committee are not always correct or rational w/ their decisions, good AND bad, but do TB's REALLY qualify as an accurate HOF-worthy measuring stick??? shee-yit, Helton (#62), Damon (#72), Finley (#7) and Staub (#76) are HOF-worthy based on your argument ???, while the majority listed above them - Top 80 - seemingly had warranted careers which INCLUDED their respective TB counts - are at least more believable. sorry, I disagree, respectfully or otherwise, based on your "3000 hits vs TB's argument" as being a valid measuring stick, but... p.s. - feel free to block me should you choose - I've got THICK skin, and I have NO desire to get into an elongated back/forth debate - just thought I'd offer my imput, and RESPECTFULLY disagree with your personal viewpoint - we can all do that civilly: ain't America great! best wishes, happy collecting and...*PEACE* !!! Last edited by FourStrikes; 08-11-2016 at 09:43 PM. Reason: because I CAN!!! |
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Ichiro is batting 318 with more walks than strikeouts and still plays a very good outfield with a cannon arm. He is a high end platoon player to me not replacement level. If he were released now teams would be falling all over themselves to sweep him up for the stretch run.
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#86
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So some team will pay for him for a month or 2 at a very low salary as a bench player and pinch hitter. Thats a replacement level player That still doesnt say much. He wasnt offered any other jobs this year for a reason Next year nobody is going to be fighting to sign him. There was zero bidding war for him this year. If he was a high end platoon player he would have more opportunities than the Marlins. Heck why wouldnt Seattle want him for more money to finish his career. Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-12-2016 at 07:45 AM. |
#87
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Not sure what you are arguing. I just compared total bases accomplishments versus hits even in the context of a participation award. Number 7 in all time total bases is babe ruth not Finley by the way but i am assuming that was a typo. Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-12-2016 at 07:42 AM. |
#88
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I was watching the Mets game yesterday afternoon and as the D’backs set a new record for a three game series of stolen bases against of the Mets, Gary Cohen and Keith Hernandez got into a debate about saber-metrics, the importance of steals, etc. Gary was making the point that steals have become a virtual nonexistent in the game, as the new metrics are proving that unless you are stealing at a 75% success rate, the art of the steal is ineffective. Keith went into a bit of a tirade. If you watch SNY, this is usually entertaining. He argued about the Cardinal days of the 70’s with guys like Lou Brock. He then tried to explain to Gary that there is more than sheer numbers. I am paraphrasing, as I couldn’t find the actual video of his exact wording, but he said something to the effect of…
“All of these statistics don’t tell the larger picture. How the lead of a potential base stealer can get into the head of an opposing pitcher. How the base stealer can cause a pitcher to rush his delivery. How a base stealer can change shifts in defensive alignments.” He said much more, and with more clarity, but I think his point is valid and can be applied here as well. An argument/discussion, based purely on numbers doesn’t tell the whole picture. Anyone with 20 minutes can go to Baseball-Reference and create an argument that debunks a counter argument. Are 3,000 hit an impressive achievement, regardless of longevity? Absolutely. Are 4,500 total bases (or whatever arbitrary number) impressive? Without a doubt. Does one mean “more” to overall greatness or Hall of Fame worthiness? In my opinion, probably not. Like Keith, I am more in line with looking at totality. (Shameless plug for Keith) – He is not a Hall of Famer, although many, including myself, would argue he should be. His hit total puts him at #192 on the all-time list. His total base totals put him at #229. His batting average puts him at #268. Sheer numbers – not that impressive. But if you look at the totality of his career – Arguably the greatest defensive 1B of all time. 11 CONSECUTIVE gold gloves. The trade catalyst (along with Carter) for bringing a championship to Queens. A team leader, on and off the field. The Captain. These things aren’t quantifiable by numbers solely (well, the Gold Gloves are), but they mean something to overall greatness. I’m a math teacher. I love numbers as much as the next stat nerd, but let’s not lose sight of the forest for the trees. Want to argue Ichiro? Great. Debate it. But debate his totality to his teams. What did he bring to the table? Did he elevate his team? Did he bring unity to the clubhouse? Did he teach, through daily actions, what it takes to be great? All of the numbers are great, but let’s keep them in the context of what unites all of us – the game of baseball – not the baseball-reference website. |
#89
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Agree with Michael. There are some guys in the hall who you would trade for guys not in because they meant more to their teams and were winners with skills statistics do not measure.
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#90
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I agree with that. Thats why i call some award participation awards. In the NBA, they do talk about total points scored. However, the stats are really more focused on points/rebounds/assists etc per game. You tell me somebody got a million rebounds in a career, to me its more impressive if he had 13.5 rebounds a game and played 8 years. I think in the NBA changing the amount of games in a season, if they did it, isnt as big a deal as baseball. Less games in baseball it will be harder to get the magical 3000 hits. In basketball, you can still score 30.4 points a game and be called one of the greatest all time scorers and nobody will care that you scored less points in a season or got below the magical whatever number in total points.. Baseball is just different.. Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-12-2016 at 09:44 AM. |
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How does a guy who gets 3,000 hits in 16 seasons qualify as a participation award player? Before you said anyone could play 23 seasons and get 3,000 hits. Ichiro did it in 16.
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#92
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they celebrate 3000 hits, not the amount of years it took him to get it. We arent just talking about ichiro we are talking about 3000 hit club in general. So coming up with 1 out of 2 of the lone examples of guys that did it in 16 years or less that are in the 3000 club proves my point, you are citing an exception not the rule. You already appear to agree that 23 seasons amounts to a participation award as you were quick to talk about Ichiro. 25 guys took 20 years or more on the top 30. Most of the remainder are 19 years of service. Cap Anson 27 years which is 111 hits a year. (yes many many less games a season) Still if you play 23 seasons you need 130 hits a year. Replacement guys can do that, but they arent going to have the power needed to get in the top 30 of total bases. Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-12-2016 at 01:15 PM. |
#93
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How come Julio Franco doesn't have 3,000 hits?
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#94
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How come Ichiro doesnt have 4000 total bases or even 3900 total bases even with 3000 hits? Walks are also added to the total bases which makes the feat amazing.
I would assume Julio Franco doesnt have 3000 hits because he only played in 120 games in a year 13 times. Plus one year he played ONE game, in another year 15 games and there are 9 years in which he played under 100 games many for far less. Give him 20 years of steady games and he gets it easy Its too bad Franco didnt get to participate more to win the participation award Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-12-2016 at 02:34 PM. |
#95
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3,000 hits. 500 home runs. 300 wins. 3,000 strikeouts.
Rightly or wrongly, these milestone career totals have been celebrated for decades. I personally consider achieving any one of them to be a, "big deal," as the OP framed it. I understand that advanced statistics are available and perhaps more useful when comparing one particular player to another. However, I also try to keep things in context. In and of itself, racking up 3,000 hits in Major League Baseball is quite an accomplishment. In short, yes, it IS a big deal. Kudos to all who have done it. If 4,500 total bases somehow becomes a milestone, which I doubt, then let us applaud those players, too. Best regards, Eric |
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Walks aren't added to total bases........
__________________
Always looking for rare Tommy Bridges items. |
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Ah now you see what that would of been an amazing feat... there are other metrics that factor it in..
To sum up, there are different ways to look at total bases versus hits...each side has its argument..neither side is 'wrong' No more from me on this thread.... |
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Much appreciated, Jake. Thank you.
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#100
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sure they are MILESTONES for the player, and celebration points for an individual's lengthy career. My entire argument has been that hitting a milestone doth not necessarily carry with it some level of prowess. There is no such a thing as a "3000 hit player" as not all hits are created equal. There are plenty of hitters better than many on the 3000 hit club who had long careers that were far more productive. In a nutshell, I'm just saying that getting to a milestone doesn't make you a better player than some other who failed to reach it. We have to look deeper below the surface. ETA: the OP asked if 3000 hits was overrated, and yes I tend to think that ,as an indicator of player performance, it IS!
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits Last edited by bravos4evr; 08-13-2016 at 03:26 PM. |
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